Shiny rate change

[1992bunjak]

Here's the thing..
Why economy broke..
First i want to straightened up our mind that this is an MMORPG, which money only circulate between NPC and people..
NPC makes the pokedollar gone (which is will make the total pokedollar in the world lower)
Peope / Player only transfering pokedollar from one player to other player (the total pokedollar in the world stays the same)

imagine, you fought a pokemon and got 50$, while other people, let say only 100 people playing.. 5000$ every.. lets say 30seconds
in on minute we got 10.000$ increase in the world, in one day?

Second, the MMORPG different from actual world, the actual world there are development, buildings, and many other improvement, using energy and money..
The money and energy is gone, when there are change.. Like when you need to build a new house, the old house is gone, which is the money to build the old house is gone..
The reason energy got higher because the energy is going to be spend out.. BUT the price will follow a "standard"
remember "price" "money" is just a value that we make to define how valuable is it.. so only the rich can get hands to it..

Third, there are an issue which rich people and poor people have too high difference..
This is caused by the rich got too much money, so the price is automatically following the standard (depending on how valuable is it) at that particular time.

My statement:
lowering shiny chance not going to make the economy returns to normal.
The effect by lowering shiny :
1. It's harder to get (of course)
2. The price goes higher

the price is depending on the total pokedollar on the world (the "standard", they will be made by the catcher, and the money that people have)

So, my conclusion lowering shiny and bringing economy back to normal is a different matter. I'm not saying it won't help.
what is normal economy anyway? my opinion is when the rich and the newbie dont have much different hands on money..

my opinion to get economy back to normal is: to make more features using pokedollar
the effect :
1. the rich have something to spend, other than just piling their pokedollar, and they can get that extra features
2. the noobs have constant thing to struggle, after they got badges, they can after the extra features or shinys (the shinys and any other pokemons will have constant price, not going higher and higher)

but i think by making extra features will make the game more enjoyable anyway

my idea on extra features:
-fly to any city using pokedollar
-gambling (this one will be a role player on lowering money on the world, which is keeping the total money on the world stay not going high high high higher..)
-make a competition, use pokedollar to entering competition to get a wall of fame (i think it's interesting for the rich, they would want to get their name on that)
- any other ideas guys?

i'm not an economic expert, just an architect student.. so my logic might be wrong,
feel free to express your idea..

you just started to play right?

 

[Saric]

Most of these shiny pokemon come with bot users. So just cleaning the bots from the game is too hard? I'll give you an idea, make it so that catching a wild pokemon with full hp is impossible, then no bot will work

One can never clean out bots on any mmo. The moment you "clean" them out, more will come.
And even if you put restrictions on them like that, people will find a way around it in no time.

how do you know that during catching pkmn on bot they have full HP? guess you use 1 too

I'm pretty sure you misunderstood my post.
I was saying that even if there was a restriction on catching pokes with full hp, people will find a way around it.
It doesn't take someone who used one to know this.
Anyway this is getting rather offtopic so I'll leave it here.

 

[Sparrow777]

Most of these shiny pokemon come with bot users. So just cleaning the bots from the game is too hard? I'll give you an idea, make it so that catching a wild pokemon with full hp is impossible, then no bot will work

One can never clean out bots on any mmo. The moment you "clean" them out, more will come.
And even if you put restrictions on them like that, people will find a way around it in no time.

how do you know that during catching pkmn on bot they have full HP? guess you use 1 too

I think this question was asked to me, Saric.
Yeah I know how it works, there is even so many tutorials in youtube but I don't use. If I was a bot user, why would I warn you about this situation?
I have to explain again, the main reason of the prices drop is because of the bots. Not only the shinies, the HR pokemon prices dropped as well in short time.

 

[Kaneda]

There's different gaps that we are trying to bridge however.

Here's how I went about looking at it:

The current rate for members is 1/2048. That rate seems to produce a mindset where people EXPECT to find shiny commons rather quickly. For non-members the rate is 1/8192 and there seems to be a consensus that it's extremely unlikely to find a shiny for non-members. So there's a giant gap between those two numbers and the expectations reflect that. Those numbers are pretty much saying "hey you NEED to have membership if you want to find a shiny and are foolish not to have one". We are more or less forcing people to buy membership to get shiny pokemon. Is this a good thing?

So we looked at exactly how does that 1/2048 compare with other rates in game. What is easier to find? HR or a shiny common? Which one should be easier to find and by how much? I answered this as: except for in water lab, Shiny commons are easier to find then horrible rares and this should not be the case.

This lead to the question: perhaps the horrible rare rate is the problem? This was dismissed because I think the horrible rare rate is perfect, and for some pokemon the rate be even lower (more difficult to catch).

The next question is, how do we go about altering the rates for shiny pokemon then. We want to keep them similar to the handhelds rates which was 1/8192. We thought this was great for non-members as they are on par with the handheld rates. If we made the chance of finding shiny pokemon any more difficult for them... well you can forget about ever finding one.
So what about the membership perk then? Well we figure twice as likely to find a shiny is still a rather big incentive to buy membership... is it not? Considering you receive 50% more exp, and twice as much money why is the shiny rate 4 times as much? Twice as much seems to still make a lot of sense, does it not?

Best argument I've seen yet.

 

[gringa]

Anyway, this situation happens because of you guys' fault. As time goes by, sometime we can fix it, sometime we can't. If you can fix it, fix it in the fair and complete way for all players. If you can not, then let make sure it will not happen anymore in the future. Not just because you guys are leaders means that you can make game run in anyway you want for anytime. You have to be responsible for your mistake.

To me, shiny pokes' prices become lower doesn't mean anything, I like to catch pokes for my own and I think a lot of people like this way too. Much more than that, I feel more excited to know that I might have more strong rivals in the future 'cause that will make battling become so exciting. My pleasure in this game is seeing my favorite pokes everyday and using them in battle with another strong team, isn't it wonderful?

Besides, this is just a game, why would we want it to be "too much balance"? Isn't a balance base on all strong teams pleases people much more than strong-weak mixed balance? 'Cause there will be no more easy wins and people who want to play this game also want to get much pleasure from game after too much life's pressures.

Well, that's just my opinion, you may agree or not. At least, I can tell you how I feel and what I expect in this game. Good luck everyone!

 

[Prizkid]

A suggestion raised up over a year ago among the staff has now been re-examined and we are looking for the players input.

Currently we are looking to decrease the chance of finding a shiny for members to 1/4096. This is half as much as it is now (1/2048). The rate for non membership shiny chance will not be effected. This will make it harder for people with membership to find shiny pokemon.

This topic is for the sole purpose of discussing the shiny rate and to get players input. If the topic gets derailed to far, we will ask you to get back on track.

Remember, nothing has been written in stone as of yet.

Just want to clarify, the current membership bonus for shiny rate is 4 times of a greater chance than non members.

Just To be Perfectly clear on something isn't 300% 3 times current non member rate(1/8192)? and 400% is 4x? so stating this shouldn't the normal rate of shinny's already be 1/2731 (rounded up from 2730.66666) ?with membership and not 1/2048 ? This could be one of your major flaws right here in the economy system!

From the Wiki Page it self http://iblamelee.co.uk/pwo/wiki/index.p ... Membership
Membership benefits

As a result of getting membership with Pokemon World Online, you will get the following:
Your Pokemon will gain an extra 50% more EXP from all Pokemon Battles
You will gain double money from all wild battles
Your chances of finding the rarer, different-colored Shiny Pokemon increase by 300%
A 1 token discount from all items over 5 tokens in the token store once membership is active

so Saying this and looking at the current Information given by the wiki and Yes i know you said it was 4x the rate But isn't it supposed to be 3x? this still would be a Lower in the Rate of Shinny's But It would be correct with what You already are donating for ...

 

[Chocobo7]

300% increase is not 3x, it is 4x. You get an increase off ~6k (300%) on top of the non member rate, the wording is awkward but correct and the rate in most definately the ones that have been previously stated.

 

[gaules]

I think better to increase the membership and decrease more for those who do not have because I was already three weeks straight with no membership and pegei not a shiny pokemon so I want increases for those who have

 

[Merse]

That's the whole point of shinys. That you can't find them daily. Or weekly. Or monthly.

 

[mad30]

Anyway, this situation happens because of you guys' fault. As time goes by, sometime we can fix it, sometime we can't. If you can fix it, fix it in the fair and complete way for all players. If you can not, then let make sure it will not happen anymore in the future. Not just because you guys are leaders means that you can make game run in anyway you want for anytime. You have to be responsible for your mistake.

To me, shiny pokes' prices become lower doesn't mean anything, I like to catch pokes for my own and I think a lot of people like this way too. Much more than that, I feel more excited to know that I might have more strong rivals in the future 'cause that will make battling become so exciting. My pleasure in this game is seeing my favorite pokes everyday and using them in battle with another strong team, isn't it wonderful?

Besides, this is just a game, why would we want it to be "too much balance"? Isn't a balance base on all strong teams pleases people much more than strong-weak mixed balance? 'Cause there will be no more easy wins and people who want to play this game also want to get much pleasure from game after too much life's pressures.

Well, that's just my opinion, you may agree or not. At least, I can tell you how I feel and what I expect in this game. Good luck everyone!

I do not care about the prices of pokemon, prices are and always will be set by players and it would be foolish for staff or the game to try to control them. The money economy is NOT the reason behind this.

There are two things at work that are the issue
1) 4x the rate for members almost forces players to buy membership if they want shiny pokemon. Not sure about you, but I would rather not dangle the prospect of shiny pokemon in front of peoples faces to get them to buy membership. You know this is the case when most players openly admit the ONLY reason they buy it is for this lone perk. That is an issue.

2) More importantly people expect shiny pokemon to appear if they buy membership and because of that shiny pokemon are no longer seen as the ultra rare pokemon they are suppose to be seen as. It seems to be far more common for someone to encounter a shiny common than a horrible rare pokemon. From the numbers circulating around, you have nearly 5x more of a chance to find a shiny common than a HR. 5 times.. I am not looking to make shiny pokemon more rare than horrible rare pokemon even though they should be. I am simply trying to bridge that gap. Another way to put it, those with membership: Shiny commons are only twice as hard as to find than VRs.

 

[gringa]

Yes, you might bridge that gap, but you can’t bridge my unfair situation or maybe new players’ situation. I know it’s a good thing, but it’s too late to fix it because the range between the tops and the new players was too far, making the newbies play in harder way is only unfair for them to become a strong player in game. Like I said, sometime things move out of our control, and we can not do anything except learning a lesson for future management.

About the two issues, here is what I think:

For the S common pokes thing, there are tons of S common pokes have been caught so far. People now will never ever respect a S Sentret anymore no matter how hard to find it just because it’s too weak. People now will respect a S poke only if it’s a strong poke no matter it’s common or not, no matter it’s hard to be found or not, like Koffing, someone did say that it’s useless no matter S or not. You may say this is not about the respectability for S pokes, then what is it about? People don’t respect some S pokes anymore, so they’re normally seen or not will not matter to them.

As I see, right now, making the S poke become harder to be found doesn’t make it be more respectful. Contrary to that, this action only give more difficulty to the new players and make the old players be favoured. You want a balance? Save it for the final version or test it in new maps.

For the membership thing, no matter you decrease shiny rate or not, the main reason they want to buy membership is always because of increased shiny rate reward. Unless you put it in the same rate with non-member, then they will think about the donation. Besides, making S pokes become harder to find will put the non-members into harder way to buy a S poke from market. Compare with a lot of S pokes have already existed, they will think that a S poke which they might be lucky to find still doesn’t mean anything, this situation only put them to the thought that they should buy membership for finding S pokes even though the shiny rate was decreased. If you don’t want them have to buy all S pokes which they want to have, then make them feel easier to find a S poke for themselves. So that, they will not feel the range between which S pokes they can find and which already exist is too far to reach.

To me, at the beginning of playing this game, I adored you guys’ community spirit. People were always very nice to each other, always respect and thank to staff because of their good works which they did for free at all. So that, now I think if anybody dare to express the thought that they don’t care about donating for this game to keep it exist while they still keep playing it, they will be laughed at by a lot of serious players. Every serious player who really want to play this game is because of they love pokemon and PWO. So, put over the non-serious players, for the serious ones, you can believe in their spirit to keep this game exist even though they can donate or not. If you want they think about membership in the better way, in current situation, I think the only way to fix whole this problem is increase non-member shiny rate.

Sorry, I did talk a lot. Anyway, the biggest problem is keeping fairness for all players. Let fix this problem first and then think about the others later.
Besides, I’m new anyway, maybe you know something that I don’t, I would love to hear it.

 

[Merse]

So you think it's too late, because you think that personally you would lose some potential money with it.
The player pool is fluctuating on PWO. There are new players ever day, there are players who leave, there are players who try to cheat and get banned. They all take their shinys with them. Within 2-3 month tops, the reduced shiny chance would show its influence on the market.

You think that the only thing with a reduced shiny chance would help only the veterans? Wrong. You have far better chances to find an epic Growlithe than a shiny one. if there are no shiny Grows on the market, then the price of epics will increase significantly. As membership doesn't influence the stats of normal Pokemon, this would even the odds for members and non-members, beginners and veterans alike. I can't see why would this be a bad thing.
ANother thing is that no matter what changes in the game, veterans already have the money to adjust to it, so they will benefit more from the changes than you do. Exampe: Shiny chance will be reduced? Vets start to buy shinys until thy are cheap, then they start to sell them when they become more expensive, because they have the capital to buy it. Shiny chances will be increased? They have already tons of shinys so they sell it before their price drops even more. Anyhow, they will gain more, or lose less than you or me.

Increasing non-member shiny rate is definitely a bad one. The point is that shinys are too common. They are more common than HRs. While they should be ultra rare. You want to make them even more common???

If the devs offer something else instead of the shiny chance, I'll continue to buy MS. Only one extreme example: Make certain areas accessible only to members and make some Pokemons catchable only there. That could be even more beneficial than the shiny chance. Of course this is a very radical idea, I'm not even sure if it's a good one

 

[gringa]

What? No, I’m not talking about the money. I’m talking about the fair chance of having S pokes for all players only, especially for the new players and the non-member players, which means that the chance for them to have strong pokes in their party. Did my English make you misunderstand something? If yes, then show me, I may explain more.

Yes, the number of players is changing everyday and the number of S pokes follows it too. But that is not a largest amount of S pokes. The largest amount of S pokes and the strongest S pokes stay in hand of the “high playing-level” players. Those players who played for years will not leave game easily, or if they leave, they will send all their S pokes to another active player. That means the total amount of S pokes in game will not change much. So that, the membership with the increased shiny rate, even if it was reduced, still increases the amount of S pokes in game, am I right?

About the benefit of rich players, I’m not sure what I should say. I am not talking about the “money economy”, so “who will be rich, who will be poor” doesn’t matter to me. The only thing matter to me is that “who will be stronger and who will never be strong enough in present condition”. All I can figure out now is that if S pokes are normally seen in market means that they have cheap prices, so every non-member players can buy S poke for themselves with a possible price, and they will have a chance to be stronger. So that they will less “hate” membership a little bit. But if we want to make them think about membership with a donating meaning, we have to make them feel more fair in finding S pokes compare with member players. Also, the new member players need the fair chance compare with the old players too. So, the only way to fix this problem is keeping S rate of new member players stay the same and increase S rate of non-member players.

I know that S pokes should be ultra rare, but now they can not come back to that situation because it will lead to the unfair situation. So, the only thing we can do now is keeping the fairness and make sure this situation will not happen again in the future. Am I clear?

 

[Merse]

But - again - that's the whole point of shinys: NOT everyone can have them! Finding a shiny is not a right, it's not something you can expect. If you find a shiny, you should feel incredibly lucky, you should open a bottle of champagne with your friends, you should walk around in PWO with your shiny behind you and refuse offers of 2000 tokens, just to trade your shiny away. Shinys should be that rare. The thing is, you shouldn't find shinys at all. Or 1 per year tops. Just ask the question: How many hours you played with the original Pokemon games? How many shinys you found? Most likely none, or one perhaps. And you played maybe a thousand hours altogether, if you started with Gen1.
I didn't find any shiny in the handhelds. In PWO I played 550 hours and I found at least 30. Or even more. This is insane. If by any chance the shiny chance would be changed, the only way is to reduce the chance for members, but definitely not to increase it for non-members.

If vets leave, they leave because they lose interest in the game. They come to play less and less, then one day they don't come back. They NEVER trade away their Pokemon to another player. Exactly because of what you said: They played thousands of hours to get what they have, and they want to keep them in case they change their minds and want to return.
The best example is the example of Mewtwo. There was one single Mewtwo ingame, it was the first prize of an epic tournament. It is by far THE MOST VALUABLE Pokemon ever in PWO history. Do you know what happened to it? Its ofner stopped playing. He didn't log in for 1 year now, or maybe even more. Soon he'll be deleted, and so Mewtwo with him. The point is: Only in about 1% of the cases a player leaves by deciding "OK, I don't play PWO any more, I give away all my Pokes." I heard only one single player who did this. They leave like in the example above, they just forget about PWO. And so none of their ultra rare and valuable Poekmon returns to the market. Ever.

Just face it man: Those who started the game earlier will always have more money, more Pokemon, more of everything. Simply because as you play, you get things. Statistically sooner or later you'll find a shiny HR, then another one, then another one etc. That's just how an MMO works: You're progressing, so you will NEVER EVER completely catch up with a veteran with 1000+ hours of advantage. Except if you spend a few thousand dollars on the game. But there is no other way. They spent more time ingame, they already bought some good Pokemon, they also found several good ones.
All you want to do is to take the right of the veterans to be veterans and have the best, the rarest Pokemon in the game. Why? Because you found this game later and you want them too? If you want them, pay their price: You can sell Tokens to have enough money to buy them, or spend a lot of time to get them by yourself.

How fair it would be if time to time the beginners would start to protest that they want to be on the same level as the veterans in this instant (ok, VERY fast)? Let's say that we increase the shiny chance for everyone. In 1 year, someone else would come up saying that it's not fair that veterans have 200 shiny HRs and I have only 2. Let's increase the shiny chance even more! That's not how it should be done...

 

[MiddleMan]

yeah i totally agree, the problem is not the current supply of pokemon and the shiny chance. We arn't looking at the real problem here. Why does everyone have the poke they want? well... for one, they probably don't ( alot of attacks in game are broken). So the people who would otherwise create unique teams simply arnt. So there seems to be a set list of about 6-8 pokemon people specifically hunt for in a game of what? 170 some usable pokemon? Its obvious all of these comments and even the topic of this being brought up is based on yes you said it greed. The prices are fine, everything is fine. The economy is a complete reflection of the game. The game is broken, Its that simple. So people who are members are already aware of this, why pay for membership if the list of usable pokemon is so small, AND SHINY CHANCE DECREASED? yeah. Like people want to sit there and watch at scratch scene for 2 years and have their game play experienced screwed around by some people who can't help but complain.

Fix the attacks, and you will have your economy fixed. Simple as that. More people will farm more remote pokemon, increasing supply and demand for more willing buyers. Durrr. Example. Fix megadrain damn it. SO many grass pokes useless.. Why?

 

[Anonymitity]

I'm not usually a person that talks very much nor voices their opinion, and even though I'm not "new" here per se, I know you guys don't know me. Though, I've read all six pages of this thread, and even though some good ideas and thoughts were mentioned. I believe everyone has failed to overlook the overall situation at hand. It's the economy at risk not the chance of shiny pokemon. The way I look at it, The shiny rate needs to be dropped if the auction house is coming back, Or else all shinies will become worthless and the economy will crash, Due to the fact they'll be too easy to obtain. Why? When opening a player-based market (or re-opening a player-based market), The items (in this case pokemon) tend to increase rapidly on that market thus becoming easier to obtain, Not only shiny pokemon, But VRs, HRs, UCs, ect. aswell. This is mainly due to the fact that people don't have to advertise in trade chat, walk to the union room, wait for the buyer/seller to meet them, and cross their fingers that the other person is honest and not going to rip them off. Which seems to be the current trade/buy/sell cycle now. I guess this is just how I view the whole situation. As for actually fixing and balancing out the economy while decreasing the gap between new and old members is beyond me though, and I can't think of an idea to fix it as it's. Although, Fixing moves such as MiddleMan stated may help that, As I agree people would be more apt to use off-beat and unique pokemon if a majority of them weren't utterly useless.

(My apologies for rambling, Though I am an honest person and as I read the six pages of this thread this is the thought that stumbled through my head.)

 

[gringa]

I just want to clarify my argument in case it might be misunderstood:

I didn’t point out which result I should reach. They all based on logical thinking, at least, as I see. The starter point is the new member players should have the same chance of finding S pokes like the old (member) players have had, in this case is 300% S rate, no more, no less because they deserve to have it. What I pointed out is I expect they can have strong S pokes like many old players have already had if they spend enough time, maybe very long but at least they still have the same chance to find. That’s the fair thing. Though the long time of playing game, they will not have as much S pokes as the old players have, that’s not what I expect for them too. What I expect is they may have the strongest wild S poke in game if they spend a huge time to play like any players who have already had one. In this case, if we decreased their S rate, it would be unfair for them to reach that top. After all, they will not have any reason to ask for more increased S rate because it stayed all the same for all players in all time. All they have to do is spending more time in playing. About the top players, well, if we put all players in the same condition, the top players can not move on any more than the strongest S poke in game while the new players still have the same chance to reach that top.

About S poke’s value, I agree S pokes should have that huge value which I wonder why staff put S rate for members at that high chance in the past. And now, because the long time has passed, I expect the responsible and fair solution from staff to fix this problem.

Ya, I might complain but at least I pointed out which problems that they have to fix and you guys should pay attention on. That all about the expectation of fair game.

About the decrease of S rate, I suggest staff should calculate the data of S pokes’ number that changed though the long time, a year or more, to figure out how much S rate should be and how long, after S rate change, the game will become right balance* between S pokes and non-S pokes, as if it may become balance. After that, we will consider more about how to create the fairness.

*right balance means that a balance which we feel good about it.

 

[Merse]

Your argument is based on the wrong basis. Not veterans, but MEMBERS have the 300% extra shiny chance. Membership is something you buy for tokens, and the possibility is open to everyone. But your arguments are wrong also because you can't expect to have the very same rights during the eternity. Your ancestors had the right to be kings, to be nobles, to have slaves, to make their workers to worn on 7 days of the week. But the world has changed. According to your arguments I should have the right to demand to own African people as slaves and do with them whatever I want because they are just speaking tools. My ancestor had the rights so I want those rights too! Of course this argumentation is wrong from the beginning.
Or let's say you're an official, a bureaucrat. And you demand to have exactly the same payment than the co-worker who works there for 25 years already. That's not how it works!
You have to accept that things change. Did you know that there were events when Snover, Anioth, Poochyena were catchable? And that there was a possibility to battle Zapdos and several other shiny Pokemon? Now you can't. And you can't demand that just because once they were available you have the right to get them now.
Earlier, every shiny got +20 points to every stat automatically, just because it was supposed to be stronger. But not any more. Do you want to demand that benefit too?
Again, you must accept that some things change.

And finally: If you want a realistic shiny - non-shiny rate ingame, you must drastically reduce the shiny chance. And not increase. About 0.000001% of all caught Pokemon should be shiny, now this rate is about 0.1%

 

[Yukiro~]

In my opinion we do nothing with the shiny rate, there are players who have invested lots of money in this game and while I don't want to be bias I think it would be more unfair to them than the people who haven't spent money, but are saying it should be changed. To be honest I won't say this for everyone, but we all know memberships are mainly bought because of the shiny chance.

If I'm miss-comprehending the main point here then forgive me.

 

[.Blaze_Ot]

This is a good idea but there could be repercussions. What would the impact on the PWO economy be? Prices for key items like Surfboard could go back to the millions. I do think it is a good idea because a lot of membership users say "a Shiny a day"
This could highly increase pokemons value. Im all for it as long as there are no repercussions O0