Dragonite's outrage poll

[matileo19]

I don't understand what are you trying to do with that pokemon but ok...let it be. I don't want him to die from a Espeon neither from any starter such as Feraligatr. Yet people found a way how to get perfect one. I wonder why there is so many Feraligatrs on steroids. All I can see here is manipulation of a move. Why would you break one move just to let other broken one dominating such as espeon's future sight. It is true that Dragonite got updated but you must know that all of his punches(fire,Ice, thunder) are broken and they are all using Spakt in PWO instead of Atk. I was using Dragonite with Outrage, Agility, Wing attack and Water gun all the time and I was satisfied since Outrage was 100% accurate. I lost hundreds of millions pokedollars overnight since he got nerfed a while ago and I am not complaining. As a frequent battler I know what he is capable and what he is not. Hes encounter ratio was changed he is even more harder to get now. I wonder why people are spending months to get a decent stats one down there and eventually he will be crushed by a 3 mils pokemon such as Espeon. Don't get my words wrong I am not questioning your thoughts. But look at images provided below. I will explain them very well. I was seeking for this quite a bit.

-My Dragonite missed Outrage at opening and survived outrage of another one then gave him a fatal kiss last turn.

-My Dragonite failed to OHKO another one by 1 HP. Other one failed to OHKO mine then he got defeated by wing attack next turn.

- I will not mention how many battles Ive lost since he missed. This should not be happening. Dragonite is a pseudo legendary pokemon and I don't want that people are using him as a test experiment. Who ever is thinking different should dedicate to battles more. That is my suggestion. Go and make few thousands of battles and make your team more perfect then tell me your opinion. Warm water cannot be invented since it is here long ago and it is nothing new.

And we've been here for years, you have over 4000 wins and I have 1700 in 2 accounts wich is a total of 3400+ , I think that we know a bit how the battle system works and what a poke/team is capable in battles, atleast in pwo.This is what I could've said, but I always got fired with bad comments so, I'll just say this:

+10 for your comment.

 

[sagarpatel740]

i would like to say
power 97
accuracy 100
i wont poll the 3 option ...
it wouldnt be a drago if it get pool 2 or poll 3

 

[_Twister_]

2nd option seems to be better than the other two,since 90 power outrage is enough to KO a dragon pokemon.

 

[Tecknician]

Stuff

Stuff

There's several issues with this line of argument.

There's a ton of issues with the current battle system. Do I understand pwo's battle system well? No, which is why I am actually listening to everyone's thoughts. However what I can see is the goal of what the previous admin started was to make the game more balanced regardless of lore so more pokemon are useable and teams are more dynamic.

Last time I battled pokemon using a complete battle system, each pokemon didn't spam a single move over and over again like it does here and just about any team could beat another team with the correct strategy. I have seen a team full of legends lose to a team without a single legendary pokemon in it.

List of OU pokemon in according to smogon.
http://www.smogon.com/bw/tiers/ou

How come you are only wanting dragonite buffed? Why hasn't anyone also made a case for the other pokemon on that list that are not often used in pwo as overused to be buffed.

I am considering far more things when deciding if a certain move should indeed be changed other than "This isn't doing enough damage for me to kill this one pokemon like I should be able to!"

 

[Davion]

I am considering far more things when deciding if a certain move should indeed be changed other than "This isn't doing enough damage for me to kill this one pokemon like I should be able to!"

I think they are trying to get buffed Dragonite because the coming event/tournament and obviously they don't want to give a chance to the noob/average to win against them just because they dragonite missed outrage or isn't doing enough damage to have advantage in the battle. They are complaining because "HEY! I spend over 500mil on this dragonite I don't want lose against a noob in the tournament I want the price I spend all my life on this dragonite", why they are not complaining about a other pokemon such as Tauros that really got nerfed ? because it's a pokemon easy to obtain with very nice stat ( max spd and max atk ) and everyone have one.

 

[crenel]

Hi,

One of the things that seems to be getting overlooked here is simply that Dragonite is not the only Pokemon that learns the move 'Outrage'. While Dragonite may be the one Pokemon that currently benefits the most from using the move, it's also a part of Kangaskhan's offense.

Any alterations made to Outrage also affect how effective Kangaskhan is when paired up against other Pokemon. Kangaskhan relies on Outrage to add variety to her move set beyond Normal and Dark type attacks. Even counting Reversal, Kangaskhan finds herself in a very sour place without the ability to carry along a fourth attack type. A good Kangaskhan can be competitive against an average Dragonite solely because of this move. Without it Kangaskhan doesn't stand a chance, despite her greater speed and health.

Move balance is never done solely to benefit or hamper a single Pokemon. Even in the case of Slaking's Hammer Arm, alternatives were followed as to preserve the strength of Hammer Arm for Pokemon like Rhydon and Sudowoodo. Unlike in the case of Slaking, Dragonite has a diverse move set and the ability to utilize many of those moves effectively.

Editing Outrage to be less accurate but deal more damage will more or less turn it into a clone of Dragon Rush. This does not work toward anyone's benefit, but especially not Kangaskhan owners. Outrage already out-performs Dragon Rush * -- would you prefer that we removed Outrage from Dragonite's move set so that you can use Dragon Rush instead?

-crenel

Spoiler: *

Dragon Rush: Average Damage Per Use = (100 * 1.5) * 0.75 --> 112.5 damage
Dragonite's Outrage: Average Damage Per Use = (95 * 1.5) * 0.95 --> 135.375 damage
Kangaskhan's Outrage: Average Damage Per Use = 95 * 0.95 --> 90.25 damage

Consequences of Poll Option 2: 100 accuracy and 90 power:
Dragon Rush: Average Damage Per Use = (100 * 1.5) * 0.75 --> 112.5 damage
Dragonite's Outrage: Average Damage Per Use = (90 * 1.5) * 1.0 --> 135 damage
Kangaskhan's Outrage: Average Damage Per Use = 90 * 1.0 --> 90 damage

Consequences of Poll Option 3: 90 accuracy and 100 power:
Dragon Rush: Average Damage Per Use = (100 * 1.5) * 0.75 --> 112.5 damage
Dragonite's Outrage: Average Damage Per Use = (100 * 1.5) * 0.9 --> 135 damage
Kangaskhan's Outrage: Average Damage Per Use = 100 * 0.9 --> 90 damage

Consequences of the proposed change to 120 power and 70% accuracy:
Dragon Rush: Average Damage Per Use = (100 * 1.5) * 0.75 --> 112.5 damage
Dragonite's Outrage: Average Damage Per Use = (120 * 1.5) * 0.70 --> 126 damage
Kangaskhan's Outrage: Average Damage Per Use = 120 * 0.70 --> 84 damage

Consequences of the proposed change to 120 power and 100% accuracy should be obvious, but will be listed anyway:
Dragon Rush: Average Damage Per Use = (100 * 1.5) * 0.75 --> 112.5 damage
Dragonite's Outrage: Average Damage Per Use = (120 * 1.5) * 1.0 --> 180 damage
Kangaskhan's Outrage: Average Damage Per Use = 120 * 1.0 --> 120 damage

Making Outrage more inconsistent in exchange for more power is a huge nerf for Kangaskhan while only a small one for Dragonite. Reducing the ADPU on Kangaskhan's Outrage would more or less make her unusable competitively. She currently is competitive as a mid-range Normal type, as her Dragon-type coverage, speed and attack allow her to finish off some threats that other Normal types might not be able to. Not only would she lose her mostly-reliable ability to polish off injured Dragon types, but she would deal less damage to boot. Simply put, she would see even less use than she sees now.

Increasing the ADPU on Kangaskhan's Outrage would cause Kangaskhan to perform a Dragon type attack better than Dragonite's second-best Dragon type attack. I don't believe that this is healthy for a competitive environment. I also don't believe that super-powering one move is what's going to make Dragonite "feel powerful" again.

Any alteration to Outrage directly alters Kangaskhan as well as Dragonite, but it is a more radical and noticeable change to Kangaskhan. A lot of our posters seem to be of the opinion that Dragonite needs to feel more prominent, and that editing Outrage is the only way that this can possibly happen. I simply do not agree and simply do not see it that way.

Move balance is a very fine web, as that spun by a spider. While a delicate touch and careful observation of the bigger picture can make a web sturdy and reliable, a misplaced strand might leave holes or even cause the web to tear apart in the wind. Our web may not be perfect, but I would be dishonest with you if I told you that buffing Outrage would improve the overall game.

Tecknician is looking to tighten the web, not cause more holes. Making the move 100% accurate and lowering its damage to 90 is for all intents and purposes identical to its current ADPU for both Dragonite and Kangaskhan. Making the move 90% accurate and increasing its damage to 100 is for all intents and purposes identical to its current ADPU for both Dragonite and Kangaskhan. The difference is that making the move more accurate is a bigger boon to Kangaskhan, while making it more powerful is a bigger boon to Dragonite.

Kangaskhan is never going to one-hit a bulky Dragon-type Pokemon, but she can be used to out-speed an injured one and clean shop. For that, she wants the extra accuracy. In Dragonite's case, it doesn't matter as much if Outrage misses more often as it benefits from a higher STAB to make up for it. Dragonite gains the ability to one-hit some Pokemon at Kangaskhan's expense.

I hope you guys understand why I am in favor of the accuracy > power poll option -- it's better for the overall health of the game -- while I am not in favor of a stronger Outrage in exchange for accuracy -- it hurts Kangaskhan, who should by all rights be a viable option for competition. Super-powering Dragonite is unhealthy for the overall game, and as a result Kangaskhan's going to take priority in my book.

Spoiler: Having said all of that

Without examining what sort of impact changing Thrash and Petal Dance to share a 100% accuracy 90 power spread would have, I would simply not touch any of the moves at all. If I recall, I chose the 95/95 combo because it compensated the most for all of the problems. Either way, I think the game is in good hands with Tecknician. I doubt he would follow only the advice of high-league competitive battlers when making decisions.

 

[Nikola]

I think they are trying to get buffed Dragonite because the coming event/tournament and obviously they don't want to give a chance to the noob/average to win against them just because they dragonite missed outrage or isn't doing enough damage to have advantage in the battle. They are complaining because "HEY! I spend over 500mil on this dragonite I don't want lose against a noob in the tournament I want the price I spend all my life on this dragonite", why they are not complaining about a other pokemon such as Tauros that really got nerfed ? because it's a pokemon easy to obtain with very nice stat ( max spd and max atk ) and everyone have one.

1. I am not trying to get anything buffed.
2. I am not using only Dragonite in my team.
3. I am not complaining about anything. Read better next time.
4. I am not encouraging anyone to buff Tauros nor Slaking.
5. Speedhackers are seeking for Dratini not for Tauros nowadays. You will hardly see that anyone is selling Tauros in trade channel.

 

[Nikola]

We cannot point gun at their head and tell them what pokemon they are going to use. I cannot use rock if they are using water. Believe me that people were trying to battle with every pokemon from Rattata till Slaking. Everyone is trying to replace something in their team. But at the end we all know that there is 15/16 pokemons worthy of mentioning for battles and not even a perfect update will replace those. People are having similar pokemons for a reason. I can tell that reason is because they are battlers and they can see very easy what pokemon would be great for their team. It would be unnatural to put Espeon and Dragonite in same rank...or Ratticate with Absol.
-We all know that battle engine is poor developed and that there is many things to be done. Nothing can make a good balance as perfect battle engine can. It can take a time but it will be here.
- You mentioned above word "buffed". We don't want buffed tauros, slaking etc...neither I don't want outrage with 120 power. But dragonite is totally different thing then tauros or slaking is. They are all way faster and used to have way more stronger moves then outrage. I can see outrage having accuracy of 100 and power of 95 more balanced then any other suggestion so far. All I want is to give him an chance to counter ubber espeon or random jolteon. Especially espeon with Spatk of 293 and broken future sight having 100 power and 100 accuracy hitting every move instead of 2 moves of cool down. Future sight is overused by every psychic pokemon...Of course they will be overused since they are buffed and their are surpassing any reasonable limit. I just gave those 2 as example how things works.
-Crenel mentioned Kangaskam above. It is true that Kangaskam became a domesticated predator and it can defeat many dragons pokemons but I wonder why she cannot defeat Espeon and it can defeat dragons. All I am saying that future sight probably got forgotten somehow and its is way more broken then Giga impact is.
Mostly of pokemons are covered with this great update and I am having troubles to find anything else useful since you've mentioned to buff something which is not mostly used in PWO. Probably in near future move type split would be awesome such as fangs and punches being used by Atk stat not Spatk as they used now. I am looking forward to future updates since they look very promising. It was a while since someone put effort to do something like this.

 

[HOF69]

This may sound a little off topic, but since I've seen Thrash mentioned in here several times, I thought I'd throw out the idea of changing that move as well. Why not make Thrash 100 power and 100% accurate? That doesn't make Tauros really any better than it is now since Giga Impact is also currently 100 power (it just means that Tauros has a 100 power move that won't miss). Rather, the reason I'm suggesting this change is so Gyarados get a slight upgrade. Gyarados is a physical attacker, so it would be nice to have a strong physical attack that doesn't miss. It has Hyper Beam, but of course that has its proper accuracy of 90% (and is nerfed to 100 power). I don't think that move needs to change since so many pokes learn Hyper Beam, but making Thrash just a little better keeps Tauros basically as it is now but makes Gyarados a little more competitive. Or I suppose another alternative would be to make Thrash 100 power and 95% accurate. That being said, Gyarados won't be truly great until Ice Fang and Aqua Tail are classified as physical moves, but that's a discussion for another time.

 

[Tecknician]

HOF pretty much just made a perfect post of what the players want, but I do not, a single move on each pokemon that is by far better than every other move.

The move with the strongest attack, should not also be the most accurate.
A weaker move should be more accurate than a stronger move, everything else equal.

There should also be costs and benefits when choosing attacks, in the regular games it's more about strategy, do I do more damage, or set myself up with status's or by lowering his stat for an attack latter.

Unfortunately in pwo these sort of strategic options aren't presented, however that does not mean that there shouldn't be costs and benefits when choosing moves.

Perfect example what the handhelds did that should be replicated in pwo: Ice beam/blizzard... thunder/thunderbolt. Do you use the move that causes more damage, or the one that will always hit. Do you play it safe or aggressive.

 

[EcoWOLFrb]

There should also be costs and benefits when choosing attacks, in the regular games it's more about strategy, do I do more damage, or set myself up with status's or by lowering his stat for an attack latter.

Unfortunately in pwo these sort of strategic options aren't presented, however that does not mean that there shouldn't be costs and benefits when choosing moves.

Perfect example what the handhelds did that should be replicated in pwo: Ice beam/blizzard... thunder/thunderbolt. Do you use the move that causes more damage, or the one that will always hit. Do you play it safe or aggressive.

I agree 100% Certain times there should be tough choices that determine battle. with a move being 100% accurate or even 95 and the power of it being 120 why would anyone think twice about using it? Where other types don't have so much of an advantage....
That being said. Perhaps if moves are nerfed solely because of the power, for instance hyper beam or giga impact. Especially when there are no negative side effects or abilities associated with that pokemon using that move. That pokemon should be compensated with higher accuracy. Theres very little difference between a pokemon using thunderbolt, or ice beam, or brine with 100% accuracy vs giga impact, or hyper beam with 100 base atk... so maybe the accuracy should be raised on these.

 

[HOF69]

HOF pretty much just made a perfect post of what the players want, but I do not, a single move on each pokemon that is by far better than every other move.

That's a completely situational dependent issue Teck. Just because a move has the highest base power for a certain poke does not mean it will do the most damage; it all depends on the opponent. Also, per my example, a 100 power Thrash would not be "by far better than every other move" Gyarados can learn; it doesn't even get STAB for using it. Besides, that wasn't even the goal of my post, it was to suggest how to make an otherwise currently limited Gyarados more competitive.

 

[Tecknician]

Why not make Thrash 100 power and 100% accurate? That doesn't make Tauros really any better than it is now since Giga Impact is also currently 100 power (it just means that Tauros has a 100 power move that won't miss).

giga impact: normal physical
thrash: normal physical

It has Hyper Beam, but of course that has its proper accuracy of 90% (and is nerfed to 100 power).

Hyper beam: normal physical
thrash: normal physcial

Edit: Yes I took those quotes semi-out of context but they still validate the point. Perhaps you yourself may or may not actually want what I am suggestion, but the point I am trying to make I think people aren't wanting the move to change for reasons that I feel are valid enough for a change.

 

[OGPokemaster]

Id also like to submit that Future sights accuracy or power be lowered. In the handhelds it takes 2 turns for future sight to take effect however in pwo it hits immediately, that combined with alakazams speed can give kazam a huge unfair advantage against other pokemon.... i suggest that the power be lowered to 90 or the accuracy to 90, like to know if others agree

 

[HOF69]

Edit: Yes I took those quotes semi-out of context but they still validate the point. Perhaps you yourself may or may not actually want what I am suggestion, but the point I am trying to make I think people aren't wanting the move to change for reasons that I feel are valid enough for a change.

Fair enough.

 

[matileo19]

If the suggestions from players aren't being opened to implement or hear, then close the topic or put a new rule validating opinions from staff members only (I'll remember you all that they are players too, the only diff is that they have a tag). You're hearing stuff from the top 4/top 3 in battles and still. Anyway I'll thank you, you're doing a good job after all.

EDIT: Emm, was a true opinion about this and is how I feel it, you won't get pink petals every day... Sorry wasn't with intention to give you words as an aggressive or selfish player, but you have to understand that from 200 players a bunch will agree and a bunch will not, I am not agreed and I am saying it without fear and the thing about being a frequent battlers yes ofc it matters just think about it.
EDIT2: Was not a sarcastic ''thank'', just to make sure you understand what i've said... lol

 

[Tecknician]

close the topic or put a new rule validating opinions from staff members only (I'll remember you all that they are players too, the only diff is that they have a tag).

This goes for me or any other staff member. You will treat us with respect we deserve, we are not simply normal players with tags, we are employees of this game given the responsibility to improve it and help make this game as enjoyable as possible. Many staff members have dedicated many hours to this game and expect nothing in return. We are given responsibilities that equal to if this was a real job and there-forth must treat every decision we make with great care. I do not care if you are an elite battler with years of experience or someone who only place a few hours on the weekend, you are not above any other member of the community. If any rule should be added it should be "Do not make suggestions if you are not willing to understand it may not happen." I am still researching this issue and trying to decide if the accuracy should go up to 100 while the attack decreases to 90. I have listen to those who voiced their opinions and provided feedback as to what I think. If this is not good enough for you then I am sorry, however I can not please everyone all the time while also making decision that best benefits the game.

Yes I do value staff opinions more than other players because I know they have been entrusted by their fellow staff members to uphold the responsibility to do what is best for the game and not for themselves. With players however some will only care about what's best for them, others only what is best for the community and rather than guessing I go by the argument you make. HOF69 presented his argument well and I simply believe, at this time, with the knowledge and understanding I have; It is the best move to make.

 

[BRGodEastwood]

Crenel had a very good point, as I am an avid Kangaskhan user, and rely on outrage to kill s kingdras or finish off dragons. lowering the attack, but increasing accuracy will hurt kanga. Increasing the attack, but lowering accuracy, will hurt kanga. the only plausible solution i can think of if change is necessary, is keeping the base power the same but raising accuracy.

 

[EcoWOLFrb]

I can see outrage having accuracy of 100 and power of 95 more balanced then any other suggestion so far. All I want is to give him an chance to counter ubber espeon or random jolteon. Especially espeon with Spatk of 293 and broken future sight having 100 power and 100 accuracy hitting every move instead of 2 moves of cool down. Future sight is overused by every psychic pokemon...Of course they will be overused since they are buffed and their are surpassing any reasonable limit. I just gave those 2 as example how things works.
-Crenel mentioned Kangaskam above. It is true that Kangaskam became a domesticated predator and it can defeat many dragons pokemons but I wonder why she cannot defeat Espeon and it can defeat dragons. All I am saying that future sight probably got forgotten somehow and its is way more broken then Giga impact is."

Sorry but Future sight isn't really that big of a problem, you could say that ice beam/flamethrower/brine are all close to being as good as future sight as a move, regardless of how it is in the actual games. Certain things don't work properly as a move(flare blitz, future sight, outrage, solar beam ect) You don't see anyone complaining about solarbeam with Exeggutor, he has high Spatk as well. And the statement about it being worse than Giga Impact is completely erroneous...how could it possibly be more broken than Giga? Giga Impact is essentially Future sight on steroids for normal pokemon in the handhelds. Attacking first, 150 damage, 1turn of rest (after the pokemon is already probably dead), compare it to taking a turn to attack in two turns, with just over the power of psychic. Not only that but the argument of him being beaten by jolteon, and espeon seems like you hold a bit of a grudge about that. For jolt or espeon to kill drago he either has to be damaged already, or miss an attack against the two, as he has much higher defensive abilities, no weaknesses from the two, and higher attack than the two of their specials. Yes they're faster, but they need that to have a chance (and they should have a chance). Jolteon uses thunder to kill drago, taking a risk of missing to do so, I suggest you implement hurricane and do the same if you want to definitely OHKO the two, as they have the same base def stats. There are also a lot of counters to espeon/jolteon...as they don't have the varied move set dragons, and other types have.
TLDR...there are much bigger problems than future sight, focus on all of them to show less bias on the matter.

 

[psychosamm]

To be honest i think Outrage should stay right where it's at. I think it's kind of funny reading your posts Darcia its almost like you think Dragonite shouldn't be able to be killed by these LOWLY Espeons and Jolteons, that Dragonite is on a totally different level somehow, and losing to anything but a pseudo legendary or an ice pokemon is somehow absurd. Outrage is a broken move, it was changed to accommodate this, it's just something everyone has to deal with. Yes future sight is broken as well, but let's be serious here, Psychic does 90 damage with 100 accuracy, even if it was weakened Alakazam and Espeon would both still have a very powerful move, so powerful that I doubt it would make or break, especially considering that Espeon would go first no matter how fast your dragonite is. And as Eco said, Solarbeam is extremely powerful considering how its just as broken as many other moves, however i haven't seen a single person complain about that. Why? Because it isn't used to kill your big ticket pokemon, if a Dragonite could be killed by a decent Exeggutor, all hell would break loose. This topic is extremely biased to the Elite battlers who have amazing Dragonites which they had to pay an arm and a leg for. If you're going to rage about broken moves then rage about all of them, not just the ones that can defeat your pseudo legendaries.