Dragonite's outrage poll

[matileo19]

And Mati do some homework man, you're supposed to be a top battler yet you think Crunch is special and Earthquake is SE on Flygon? I'd be embarrassed if i lost to you.

Feel free to pm me in game to test the thing about Flygon, as darcia said, its neutral, but with flygon having low def it gets a lot of damage. See it yourself .
______________

JD:
Yet you're wrong and aggresive... sorry buddy. And your sarcasm doesnt work here.
______________

I'll record some battles, its the only wat this can be solved, there are many guys with envy or low experience in battles .

 

[JD001]

I don't really envy you nor do I lack battle experience. I'm not aggressive nor was I being sarcastic in any way. I don't know why you thought I was being rude towards you. I saw mistakes and felt compelled to correct them. You took it the wrong way, don't know why.

Once you record the battles, please post them here, thanks

 

[psychosamm]

And Mati do some homework man, you're supposed to be a top battler yet you think Crunch is special and Earthquake is SE on Flygon? I'd be embarrassed if i lost to you.

Feel free to pm me in game to test the thing about Flygon, as darcia said, its neutral, but with flygon having low def it gets a lot of damage. See it yourself .

Can't you just admit you're wrong about anything? You specifically put down that Earthquake was super-effective on Flygon. It is not. Its regular damage, which you didn't know I guess until Darcia pointed it out. Also, Flygon's Sp.Def and Defense are exactly the same, 80, so that last part doesn't really make much sense. No one is attacking you, just correcting you, don't take it so personally. If you don't like it then just do more research next time.

 

[matileo19]

No one is attacking you, just correcting you, don't take it so personally. If you don't like it then just do more research next time.

Also Espeon can certainly be one hit by Dragonite, it's happened to me before because mine has bad def and just ok HP. As long as Dragonite has Ubber attack in that situation it will easily one hit Espeon. And Mati do some homework man, you're supposed to be a top battler yet you think Crunch is special and Earthquake is SE on Flygon? I'd be embarrassed if i lost to you. As for everyone complaining about the accuracy, missing 5% of the time is extremely rare, i think you guys simply like to remember the times you actually did miss opposed to the times you didn't. It's the same exact accuracy for all the elemental fangs, do you hear people crying about that? Begging that the fangs power be increased or the accuracy made to 100? NO! Jesus i think what we have here are a bunch of sore losers.

Would be nice if you don't contradict yourself. I'm recording videos, you'll get them all tonight/tomorrow in the morning. Thanks.

 

[psychosamm]

No one is attacking you, just correcting you, don't take it so personally. If you don't like it then just do more research next time.

Also Espeon can certainly be one hit by Dragonite, it's happened to me before because mine has bad def and just ok HP. As long as Dragonite has Ubber attack in that situation it will easily one hit Espeon. And Mati do some homework man, you're supposed to be a top battler yet you think Crunch is special and Earthquake is SE on Flygon? I'd be embarrassed if i lost to you. As for everyone complaining about the accuracy, missing 5% of the time is extremely rare, i think you guys simply like to remember the times you actually did miss opposed to the times you didn't. It's the same exact accuracy for all the elemental fangs, do you hear people crying about that? Begging that the fangs power be increased or the accuracy made to 100? NO! Jesus i think what we have here are a bunch of sore losers.

Would be nice if you don't contradict yourself. I'm recording videos, you'll get them all tonight/tomorrow in the morning. Thanks.

lol think what you may, since you always do. And we're all still waiting for those videos.

 

[psychosamm]

Picture from my battle with KPyppo earlier, as you can see he easily 1-hit my espeon with full health.

 

[kaos2201]

Picture from my battle with KPyppo earlier, as you can see he easily 1-hit my espeon with full health.

huh, guess your espeon dont have gud stats , mine could take 1 outrage of mati s drago which have 298 atk i guess not sure if its 28 ivs, kyppo drago have 297.

 

[matileo19]

Picture from my battle with KPyppo earlier, as you can see he easily 1-hit my espeon with full health.

huh, guess your espeon dont have gud stats , mine could take 1 outrage of mati s drago which have 298 atk i guess not sure if its 28 ivs, kyppo drago have 297.

Max atk, max hp and max sp.def... I have the video, I'll upload some in a few mins

 

[EcoWOLFrb]

sooo...what is wrong with an espeon not getting OHKO'd by a drago if espeon has very good stats? I realize you're trying to make a point against someone else, but if they were unrelated to the topic...what would be the problem?

 

[matileo19]

sooo...what is wrong with an espeon not getting OHKO'd by a drago if espeon has very good stats? I realize you're trying to make a point against someone else, but if they were unrelated to the topic...what would be the problem?

You should check the whole topic, the point of the videos im going to upload is to show wich pokes/moves should be nerfed and wich ones should be fixed and the thing about espeon not getting OHKO'd by outrage is as simple as it should not survive. I've been quite busy, im still editing my reply to upload the stuff with a little explaination for each video, to evade lots of complains or people crying after seeing that I was right.

 

[KaiReborn]

I wonder if changing outrage and future sight's power and acc to the values they had on Gen III would be something that I think it would be fair for both parts (that way outrage could have 100 acc and future sight could have the nerf that is somewhat needed).

 

[matileo19]

I hope this helps a bit... atleast, seeing people complaing just because they don't want to see an OP pokemon losing his power or their teams losing power is kinda disappointing. I know that many of you will reply contradicting stuff and will try to look at the little black part of a bread just to take down this work, people... you can (instead being a complainer) make your own videos or you can simply admit that you don't wanna see 1 pokemon nerfed, or that you are scared, I can't think of anything else and thats what it looks like...

Before posting the videos with deails, I'll explain what was recorded and what i am trying to discuss with my videos:

Reference points:

Spoiler

1- As the owner of this topic stated: Outrage being extremely nerfed + 95 % accuracy - used to be a move with a base power of 120 and 100% ACC. 100 BP + 100 ACC will justify what it should be ( I think ) Check this --> OUTRAGE (take time to read everything) -
2 Solar beam - Hyper beam was nerfed for being too strong, what about Solar beam? its an strong move, the ACC should be reduced from 100% to 95% or 90 % , because it needs a turn to charge (same as Hyper beam)-
3 Flygon: Some of you answered me as if I were a fool, now there are 2 or 3 videos about flygon getting damage from earthquakes/stone edge - SP: In the pokemon language means Super effective as flamethrower is against a steel type, can't you realize that Super effective in the human language means that a pokemon (in this case) is getting many damage from his opponent ?
4 Future sight: In the original pokemon games Future Sight takes action after 2 turns of it being choosed by the player. Tauros used to be OP because Giga Impact was too strong (150 P + 100 % ACC), same goes to Espeon, having a move like Future Sight with a base power of 100 and Espeon with a max spd of 253 at lvl99 - similar to tauros (Same goes for Alakzam, but Espeon is the main problem) makes him as strong as tauros was (they're not the same, but I gave you a list before and they look very similar, dont you think?) Check this --> Future SIght
5- Tauros performance in battles: (still working on it)
A - I know that there are lots and lots of moves and lots and lots of things that need to be fixed, Im just posting a bunch of them, don't complain saying ''oh and what about X move eh? Oh you see!'' lol.
B - Just to evade things like ''Ahhh I got ya! You recorded only 1 video about X poke or X move just to contradict my comment haha! you fail man!'' No, I've recorded more than 1 video of each and this wasn't made to contradict any comments(exept flygons things wich was needed), this was made to clarify what I've said before and is a way to help (Y)
C - As some of you (some) I want this fixed and solved, Im not doing this to complain or fight against little boys... ;p
D- I know that from 10 examples or battle simulations or battle videos or SS that I could make, you'll be able to elaborate and find a little and ineficient point to contradict atleast 5 of mines, but... whats the point of this guys? Just think about it.

Videos
Reference to the point number 1 - Outrage:

Spoiler

In the original pokemon games Outrage has a base power of 120 and 100 % ACC - Outrage inflicts damage for 2-3 turns. While the user is using Outrage, it cannot use any other attacks. PP is deducted only on the turn Outrage is called; it will not be deducted for the amount of turns Outrage is used before it is finished. After Outrage is finished, the user becomes confused.

Outrage in Pokemon Platinium --> Link
Outrage in Pokemon Heart Gold --> Link

-Now, here's a video where we'll appreciate that a pokemon with low def (Electabuzz in this case) survives against an outrage from Dragonite (Im using my 2nd dragonite wich has pretty good stats including max spd, used to be my main Dragonite):
Dragonite vs Electabuzz
Extra: Electabuzz base stats --> HP:65, ATK:83, DEF:57, SPD:105,SP ATK:95, SP DEF:85 and Jolteon base stats --> HP:65,ATK:65,DEF:60,SPD:130,SP ATK:110,SP DEF:95 , Jolteon has more def than Electabuzz, what I am trying to say? How are we supposed to kill Snorlaxs if Outrage can't even kill 1 Electabuzz ? How is that 1 Electabuzz survives against (yes I'll say it) 1 psudo legendary plus against a move that should be a nightmare ? Even if drago gets auto-confused for using it.

-Here's what Darcia and Hof69 tried to explain, how dissapointing is when outrage miss... considering that It shouldn't miss(and considering that it should be strongest than it is):
Dragonite vs Snorlax

- Check this video (Snorlax vs Dragonite): Dragonite using Outrage and after seeing that Outrage wasnt enough to kill Snorlax, the opponent choosed hurricane (Kppypo - Snorlax was going to survive with atleast 10hp*)
Snorlax vs Dragonite
Extra: As some of you stated ''Dragonite has hurricane, why cant you guys use hurricane? '' - I'll answer as Bis answered: Hurricane has a base power of 120 but only 70 % ACC wich means that miss a lot, plus wing attack is a way more efficient against fighting types than hurricane is (Not talking about its power, Im talking about the ACC wich means a lot when you're in battle)... BUT, depends on each player so, we can't complain about it, I personally think that Wing Attack is a lot better than hurricane, to counter a pokemon with low spd+low hp quickly and without problems or fear of getting a miss.

- To clarify what I've said about Espeon not getting OHKO'd by Dragonite, here's 1 video:
Shiny Dragonite vs uberish Espeon (Kaos2201)
Extra: Dragonite has max atk, max hp and max sp.def(letting you know these 3 stats, wich are the ones that a dragonite needs against Espeon) - Espeon survived and almost killed a SHINY* Dragonite. Wich one is worse and wich one is OP ? With Espeon having a base SPD of 110 ( Max spd 253 at lvl99) he will counter almost every pokemon with his non-nerfed move called Future Sight... while Dragonite CAN'T counter many pokemons, ''Oh no mati but Dragonite has many def!!! noob!'' I'll repeat what I've said, Dragonite base SPD is 80, meanst that you can easily counter a Drago with a faster pokemon, no need to make a list of counters right ? :-X or yes? Here's one of them --> Flygon vs Dragonite

Final and personal conclusion about Outrage and Dragonite:
I support what Darcia and some others want 100 BP + 100 ACC or atleast 95 BP + 100 ACC... Salamence has Dragon Claw and many atk + Spd plus a really good moveset wich makes him a nightmare against others but* he has low def, on the other hand we have another pseudo legendary called Dragonite, has good def+atk + ok spd and a move that was nerfed a lot, a good moveset, but none is as good as Outrage was*, its now a pokemon to counter, many will agree and many will not, but its not a tank as it used to be (or should be). Its frustating when the move miss or as the video shows, when a pokemon with low def survives against a Pseudo legendary. The main solution would be seeing the move having auto-confusion, however if the auto-confusion can't be made, then you can reduce its power from 120 to 100 but reducing its power and reducing its ACC was something like ''Get out of here Dragonite, we don't need you''. My own and personal conclution after what I've seen in this time, since 2008 playing pwo.

Reference to the point number 2 - Solar beam:

Spoiler

- Here you'll see a Dragonite using Dragorush wich has a BP of 100 and 70 % ACC* similar to what Outrage should be without miss with 100 % ACC and 100 BP. On the other hand we'll see and realize that Solar Beam is enough strong to be called OP:
Shiny Exeggutor vs Feraligatr + Aerodactyl

- A guy using Espeon as counter to kill an Epic Flygon with a good amount of Hp and then dealing a lot of damage to Dragonite. On the other hand we'll see a Venusaur, showing one more time that Solar beam sucks (for the opponent ofc) and needs an update:
Espeon vs Flygon+Dragonite and Venusaur vs feraligatr + S kingdra

Final conclusion about Solar beam:
Solar beam is similar to Hyper beam, Solar beam needs 1 turn to charge, Hyper beam needs 1 turn to Recharge lol... arent they the same thing? Almost. Then why the ACC on Solar beam remains being 100 % ?

Reference to the point number 3 - Flygon:

Spoiler

-Nothing much to say really, was explained in the top (reference points).
Flygon vs a Badly Tyranitar

-And this one:
Flygon vs Shiny Rhydon

Reference to the point number 4 - Future Sight:

Spoiler

- Espeon full HP (Unkown stats) using Future Sight against Shiny Kingdra and then against Feraligatr:
Espeon vs Shiny Kingdra + Feraligatr

- Espeon full HP (Unknown stats) using Future Sight against Epic Flygon and then against one of the best salamences in game (max atk):
Espeon vs Flygon + Salamence
Extra: Espeon died But it could've been worse if Espeon had survived asi it did in more than one occasion. But Espeon faced a godly Salamence after all.

- Shiny Alakazam using Future Sight, killing a Flygon and then dealing lot of damage on Aerodactyl:
Shiny Alakazam vs Flygon vs Aerodactyl

Final conclusion about Future Sight:
REMEMBER, moves like ''Morning Sun'' - ''Attrac'' - ''Substitute'' - etc, I remember using Psichic types with those kind of moves (real and original pokemon games), sleeping moves and confusion moves aswell, unfortunatelly this game doesn't have them yet, but they'll be what they should be with that kind of moves. From what i've seen its OP, as I said... I'll repeat it many times: Giga impact + Tauros (253 max spd at lvl99) = Jesus will save you, Future Sight + Espeon (253 max spd at lvl99) = Really strong , Future Sight + Alakazam (273 max spd at lvl99) = Not as good as Espeon, but its still a nightmare as you can see in the prev videos.

Mix:

Spoiler

- Espeon Killing feraligatr + dealing damage to Shiny Kingdra plus Dragonite vs Snorlax. I've said what I could've say about them so:
Espeon vs Fera + Shiny Kingdra & Dragonite vs Snorlax

- If PP's are introduced into the game, everything will be different and a lot more balanced
- Fixing non-damaging moves (Morning sun, substitute, Sunny day , etc) will balance the battle system aswell.
- If you're going to put SS or videos, please post more than 1, I've shown a Dragonite and a Shiny Dragonite, both are COMPLETELY diffetents... No one can argue about it really, but someone will, as always
- Outrage 100 BP - 100 % ACC (considering that Dragorush has 100 BP and only 75 % ACC) , Future Sight 100 BP - 90 % ACC (Considering that Psichic has 90 BP and 100% ACC ), Solar beam and Hyper beam 100/110 BP - 90/95 % ACC
- I am not the owner of this topic, I just have enough pokeballs to complain or say things to others .
- Critical damage is introduced, watch out on the coding lol
- This is directly to the admin working on moves, not directly for players, even if you can argue/be agreed with this
- Something to think about, if you're a battler, are you going to use low stats pokemons or you'll search for uberish ones? Being rich or not, you'll search for uberish ones, this will evade many replys from you.

Usefull comments( Even if Im not agreed ):

Spoiler

Picture from my battle with KPyppo earlier, as you can see he easily 1-hit my espeon with full health.

huh, guess your espeon dont have gud stats , mine could take 1 outrage of mati s drago which have 298 atk i guess not sure if its 28 ivs, kyppo drago have 297.

Or some of you can't simply accept the fact of seeing an OP pokemon nerfed (when it really shoudnt be as it is), that's what some seems to be looking by posting 1 SS. I pmd some of you, arguing about your comments and replys, only 1 gave me an answer.

Spoiler

Here we go with an example (3 battle simulations, with the 3 last pokes in my opponent hands and 2 in my hands):

I am using espeon full HP and Jolteon, while my opp has Salamence half HP, dragonite full hp and Lapras.

1- OPP: Salamence uses Crunch
1- Me: Metagross uses Meteor mash
2- OPP: Salamence uses Fire fang
Metagross has fainted
I send out Espeon
3- OPP: cant attack first, espeon is faster
3- Me: Espeon uses future sigh
Salamence has fainted
the opp sends out dragonite
4-Me: Espeon uses future sigh
4- OPPragonite uses outrage - the attack miss
5- Me: Espeon uses future sigh (lets think that drago has good hp and good sp.def)
5- OPP: Dragonite uses outrage
6- Me: Espeon uses last resort
Dragonite has fainted
the opp sends out Lapras
7- Me: Espeon uses future sight
7- Lapras uses brine
Espeon has fainted
I send out jolteon and I won the battle.

2nd battle simulation (same pokes exept mines, im now using Drago and jolty

1-OPP: Salamence uses Crunch
1- Me: Metagross uses MEteor mash - the attack miss
2- OPP: Salamence uses fire fang
Metagross has fainted
I send out Dragonite
3- OPP: Salamence uses dragon claw - its super efective!
3- Me: Dragonite uses outrage - its super efective!
Salamence has fainted
the opp sends out Dragonite (they don't have the same spd wich is what the opp doesnt know and the opp doesnt want a lapras with less than half HP just to kill a dragonite, thats why he sends out his Drago)
4- Me: Dragonite uses outrage - the attack miss
4- OPP: Dragonite uses outrage - its super efective!
Dragonite has fainted
I send out Jolteon
5- Me: Jolteon uses thunder
5- OPP: Dragonite uses outrage - wot, jolteon survived against a pseudo legendary!
6- Me: Jolteon uses thunder
Dragonite has fainted
the opp sends out Lapras
and he wins unless he has an ugly lappy.

3r battle simulation, the opp has espeon, snorlax and tyranitar and Im using Dragonite, Salamence and Flygon

1- OPP: Tyranitar uses earthquake
Shiny Rhydon has fainted
I send out Flygon (I have no choice, because while now drago has aqua tail, stone edge eats him anyway)
2- Me: FLygon uses sand tomb (Im lucky, sand tomb hits x5 with deals more than half op on ttar)
2- OPP: Tyranitar uses earthquake - its super efective
3- Me: Flygon uses earthquake
Tyranitar has fainted
The opp sends out espeon
4-OPP: espeon uses future sigh
Flygon has fainted
hmm... what should I do now? Sala should be able to kill him and I own one of the best salamences so, lets try
I send out salamence
5-OPP: Espeon uses future sigh
5-Me: Salamence uses Crunch - its super efective! lol...
6-OPP: Espeon uses future sigh
Salamence has fainted
I send out Dragonite
7-OPP: Espeon uses future sigh
7-Me: Dragonite uses wing attack
Espeon has fainted
The OPP sends out Snorlax
He wins with a last resort.

Just to make sure you all understand, these are REAL situations, not a part of my imagination, I hope this helps a bit. As I said, Espeon remembers me to Tauros (I know the are not exactly the same thing, but a bit similar) a proud counter to kill espeon is Metagross or Tyranitar, same that we've used for tauros, list of killing list from each:

Tauros (when giga impact was OP):
Salamence
Dragonite
Jolteon
Snorlax
Venusaur
exeggutor
Charizard
Typhlosion
Arcanine
Raichu
S gyarados
Swampert
S kingdra
Cloyster
S Machamp (My S tauros was able to kill them)
S nidoking
S primeape
Sometimes aeros
Etc.

Espeon:
Salamence
Dragonite
Jolteon (deals damage)
Snorlax (deals damage)
Venusaur
exeggutor (deals damage)
Charizard
Typhlosion
Arcanine
Raichu
S gyarados
Swampert
S kingdra
Cloyster
S Machamp (My S tauros was able to kill them)
S nidoking
S primeape
Aerodactyl (deals damage now that aero has crunch, but used to kill them)
etc.

Picking the same list from Tauros, there's not a big difference. Now dragonite

Dragonite (with the current outrage):
Salamence (if outrage hits...)
Dragonite (if outrage hits...)
Jolteon (If thunder miss 1 turn and if outrage hits...)
Snorlax (no chance)
Venusaur
exeggutor
Charizard
Typhlosion
Arcanine
Raichu (If thunder miss 1 turn and if outrage hits...)
S gyarados (if outrage hits...)
Swampert
S kingdra (no chance)
Cloyster (no chance)
S Machamp
S nidoking
S primeape
Aerodactyl ((no chance)

I won't put the 386 pokemons lol... may be next time, but its enough to compare them a bit ? This also shows that Tauros is now useless, Trash also needs an updte.

Spoiler

Darcia,

While it may be true that Future Sight is not intended to deal its damage immediately, it is also true that a large amount of our battle system does not work correctly. Future Sight is no different than other multi-turn moves, such as Giga Impact, Hyper Beam, Solarbeam and Sky Attack. Just as Outrage is also important to Kangaskhan, Future Sight is important to more than just Espeon and Alakazam. Xatu currently gets by almost exclusively because of Future Sight.

I cannot see how Espeon or Alakazam are in need for broken Future Sight while they are having perfectly working Psychic and base Sp.Atk of 130/135. Xatu would be something far more fair then those two since it has both Speed and Sp.Atk base of 95. Xatu can only show how bad Future Sight really works on higher base stats and speed pokemon.

What overall ramifications would there be to a Future Sight nerf? How would the competitive environment change? Would such a change improve the overall health of the game, or would it cause more harm than good?

-crenel...it cannot do any harm at all. Mostly of those pokemons are already covered with very decent moves such as Psychic. I could blink an eye if they are having only Future Sight as psychic type move but seeing that they are having more moves I cannot. Hell...Dream eater is also broken and no one will ever mention it because its being used by lower Spd/Sp.Atk pokemon or pokemon who doesn't offering a STAB.

You don't seem to be asking these questions. Furthermore, the point of this topic was, by several pages of discussion and your own admission, about Dragonite. (See: "Dragonite is a pseudo legendary pokemon and I don't want that people are using him as a test experiment."). Kangaskhan was not even considered until I pointed her needs out.

"Dragonite is a pseudo legendary pokemon and I don't want that people are using him as a test experiment"
That is whole reason why I am trying to show you all this. He is suffering from unnatural nerf. Good proposal was given when I created this topic crenel. I am not selfish and I don't want only Dragonite to be more competitive. Others pokemon and moves would be also covered by accuracy of 100%. And it doesn't look good when you miss that move in most critical moment. I was curious what will other people say about Outrage accuracy and I am glad to see that majority of people that I am seeing every day in battle channel supported accuracy of 100%.
- Only thing I admitted is that I am not satisfied with Outrage. Don't think that I am selfish and that I want only 1 of a few pokemon used in battles to be more buffed. Accuracy of 100% wouldn't do any harm at all.

I don't doubt that you believe that you are fighting for a good cause, but you need to take a step back and re-evaluate what it is you're posting. The reality that I am seeing is that when you say that you want a more competitive environment, what you're really saying is that you want a more competitive environment for Dragonite. Balancing moves isn't as simple as directing numbers at a handful of popular Pokemon and saying, "hey yeah, this feels good, these five Pokemon should be more competitive against each other like this."

- I said before and I am well aware what I've said. There are cute pokemons and from other side there pokemons meant to fight. You cannot put every of them on battle scene for Christ's sake. There is a chance that few pokemons can jump on battle scene and there is a key...to make people use other pokemons.
-My wishes are pure and clean and far as i know I newer fought for a bad cause. I ain't made that way.

Additionally, I find the following attitude to be deplorable in the context of Pokemon: "Since pokemon was meant to be competitive why not offer opportunity to a people who cannot afford it." Personally? I hate that Pokemon are able to be traded for $P. I don't believe that Pokemon should be 'affordable' -- I believe that Pokemon should be Pokemon, and should be available. I believe that other things should be 'affordable'; things that we haven't even gotten close to adding into the game yet.

-I can see what are you trying to say though. But I really want that people visit more often their "rusty" part of a PC. It is not easy to catch a perfect pokemon and we all know that. If they catch 3/4 Kangaskams during their way on a battle scene they can make useful at least one. Battle scene begins to fade and we are aware of that. There are only 10/12 people who are actually battling. We cannot change that over night. But we must be happy since we tried to make changes. If there is something broken...if issue is somewhere we must start to seek a problem before we start to plan a fix for it. Solving problems one by one is far more easy then solving hundreds of them at same time and I am sure you agree with that.

Spoiler

To be honest i think Outrage should stay right where it's at. I think it's kind of funny reading your posts Darcia its almost like you think Dragonite shouldn't be able to be killed by these LOWLY Espeons and Jolteons, that Dragonite is on a totally different level somehow, and losing to anything but a pseudo legendary or an ice pokemon is somehow absurd. Outrage is a broken move, it was changed to accommodate this, it's just something everyone has to deal with. Yes future sight is broken as well, but let's be serious here, Psychic does 90 damage with 100 accuracy, even if it was weakened Alakazam and Espeon would both still have a very powerful move, so powerful that I doubt it would make or break, especially considering that Espeon would go first no matter how fast your dragonite is. And as Eco said, Solarbeam is extremely powerful considering how its just as broken as many other moves, however i haven't seen a single person complain about that. Why? Because it isn't used to kill your big ticket pokemon, if a Dragonite could be killed by a decent Exeggutor, all hell would break loose. This topic is extremely biased to the Elite battlers who have amazing Dragonites which they had to pay an arm and a leg for. If you're going to rage about broken moves then rage about all of them, not just the ones that can defeat your pseudo legendaries.

-Solarbeam is something that made few pokemon useful such as Meganium and Venusaur and that is why no one is complaining about it. It is only good move on those two. And move itself isn't a big deal.

-Futuresight is mostly used by a pokemon having 130/135 based Sp.Atk and 110/120 based Speed. You cannot say that move itself is fine since since it is heavily broken in every aspect of meaning. Why would you allow that pokemon is using heavy broken move with output power of 150 and yet 130/135 based Sp.Atk. Those pokemons are already having 2/3 psychic moves with power of 90/100 such as Psychic (90) and kinda broken Dream eater which is (100). I am sure you will not feel that dream eater is having same power as future sight does since it is being used by a lower based Sp.Atk pokemons or it's being used by non psychic pokemon. I don't see any other move as problem for now since it has been taken care of them and most of those are working just fine. Only thing Im looking forward is a move type split as I said earlier certain moves are being used by a different type such as elementary fangs and punches being used by Sp.Atk instead of Atk. Most of the moves are working just fine. And I've mentioned future sight obviously for a reason. To avoid confusion all I am suggesting is to decrease power of Future sight from 100 to 90 and Outrage to be 100% accurate having power of 95. That is my opinion and when i think better... 5 points of accuracy should not harm to anyone while 5 points of power can.

Spoiler

Why not make Thrash 100 power and 100% accurate? That doesn't make Tauros really any better than it is now since Giga Impact is also currently 100 power (it just means that Tauros has a 100 power move that won't miss).

giga impact: normal physical
thrash: normal physical

It has Hyper Beam, but of course that has its proper accuracy of 90% (and is nerfed to 100 power).

Hyper beam: normal physical
thrash: normal physcial

Edit: Yes I took those quotes semi-out of context but they still validate the point. Perhaps you yourself may or may not actually want what I am suggestion, but the point I am trying to make I think people aren't wanting the move to change for reasons that I feel are valid enough for a change.

Spoiler

Id also like to submit that Future sights accuracy or power be lowered. In the handhelds it takes 2 turns for future sight to take effect however in pwo it hits immediately, that combined with alakazams speed can give kazam a huge unfair advantage against other pokemon.... i suggest that the power be lowered to 90 or the accuracy to 90, like to know if others agree

More to come soon...

 

[EcoWOLFrb]

You should check the whole topic, the point of the videos im going to upload is to show wich pokes/moves should be nerfed and wich ones should be fixed and the thing about espeon not getting OHKO'd by outrage is as simple as it should not survive. I've been quite busy, im still editing my reply to upload the stuff with a little explaination for each video, to evade lots of complains or people crying after seeing that I was right.

Well I'm fairly certain I've been active in this topic. I do Realize you think Future sight should be nerfed, and I know you believe that Outrage should at the very least be 100% accuracy. I'm not really worried about the videos, as I know depending on stats and damage it can go either way, with almost every pokemon battle. What I'm now curious about is the answer to my initial question...well...the actual logical answer. "espeon not getting OHKO'd by outrage is as simple as it should not survive" is not really a reason. I could understand if you said "outrage should have more power so that a pokemon with espeons defensive capabilities would certainly faint"....but you didn't say that (which would be a rotating argument anyway). So what is the real answer? I know at 120 it killed it, but the staff have decided that 95 is a good power for it, so now with that information what is the big deal with a good defense espeon or something with similar defenses surviving 1 outrage, other than it's obvious inferiority lol.

 

[EcoWOLFrb]

Mati just a couple things I noticed (not criticizing you)
1- electabuzz should've use thunder twice, might've killed drago. I'm not really sure if you'd complain about outrage not OHKO'ing elecabuzz, and it killing drago if that happened a lot, but you'd be wrong if you did. Snorlax is a tank anyway, and even with lower defense...still very powerfull.
2-It indeed must be disappointing when it misses, but even though i agree it should probably be 100%, as a power nerf is enough IMO...i think you guys are exaggerating how often it happens. 5% isn't bad at all, and you'd probably have to go through 5-10 battles on average to get to one where a miss makes a game winning difference.
3- I give you applause for your stance on hurricane, and showing its use, thank you. I'm glad you can recognize that it is also a battlers choice, which will make or break a battle.
4- Again, with the hate on espeon...you can't start saying that one poke can't kill another because of it's pseudo legendary, shiny status...it's just ridiculous. Furthermore you just proved that your dragonite can't easily be beaten by a espeon...even if it has good defense. What are you so outraged about...(see what i did there)? It seems here that you're peeved about the weaker status of outrage now, and are finding an outlet to complain about it.
5-I really don't know where you were going with the espeon being able to counter many things and dragonite not being the same... especially because of his speed. Well one of the main counters for drago is another dragon right? and you were pointing that out...except that dragonite at full health can kill every other dragon in game... and you proved that with flygon. Furthermore, drago has many moves to counter different types...and espeon has ...1 good move. and about the speed thing...not too hard to throw a darktype...or an aero... or even a lowers peed dragonite as you proved XD.
6- espeon doesnt live against good attack sala with crunch.
7- that aero was sloooooow ...which doesn't happen in serious battle...why put 1 super epic shiny pokemon against an obviously bad stats pokemon and then use it as an example for elite battlers to see in a discussion board? Alakazam is commonly used to take out a wounded pokemon and then get the first hit on the next pokemon, thats why it has such low defenses. It's nothing to complain about, and btw idk why you said kazam with future sight isn't as strong as espeon...because it has more attack power.

some of these videos showed nothing wrong in the battle system,like espeon taking out feraligatr, and then damaging a kingdra. This is why people need psychic counters that are better, thank you for being fair and at least putting some videos there that don't really do anything for your case. I appreciate you trying to be as unbiased as your love of dragons and investment in them will allow.

 

[furchia]

wrong topic maybe, but still need some advise from poke masters since quite a newbie here. Can't find a proper topic, so... Caught an eevee with 25-31 spatk, 20-26 atk and spd very low other stats though (10-16 hp, 0-6 def, spdef). Eevee can be envolved only to jolteon, right? Will it be proper jolteon worth in team? How often jolteons used in team (good or averange at least)? Stll missed electr pok, raichu and buzz are just a garbage. Seen many ampharos, are they better then jolteons? What attacks should I choose for jolteon if I decide to keep it? So Thunder (70% is awful, even 80-85 for hydro pump seems like 60%) and discharge are necessary? What rest moves should I pick? Last Resort? And Byte?
Ty for all future advises, sry for unconvinience.

 

[JD001]

- To clarify what I've said about Espeon not getting OHKO'd by Dragonite, here's 1 video:
Shiny Dragonite vs uberish Espeon (Kaos2201)
Extra: Dragonite has max atk, max hp and max sp.def(letting you know these 3 stats, wich are the ones that a dragonite needs against Espeon) - Espeon survived and almost killed a SHINY* Dragonite. Wich one is worse and wich one is OP ? With Espeon having a base SPD of 110 ( Max spd 253 at lvl99) he will counter almost every pokemon with his non-nerfed move called Future Sight... while Dragonite CAN'T counter many pokemons, ''Oh no mati but Dragonite has many def!!! noob!'' I'll repeat what I've said, Dragonite base SPD is 80, meanst that you can easily counter a Drago with a faster pokemon, no need to make a list of counters right ? :-X or yes? Here's one of them --> Flygon vs Dragonite

I read most of your post but I wanna say something about this. It isn't always about speed, you know that. While on that not, as a battler you change your teams to best suit you to fight against the current teams being used by other people. If you see a lot of people using espeon, incorporate a Dark Type into your team such as Tyranitar or a faster pokemon such as Aero. I realize this example was between Espeon and Drago but you make it out to be as though Espeon is unstoppable. Just as Flygon can be used to finish of a Dragonite, you can use Aero to bring down Espeon. Both Aero and Ttar are good battlers and great counters to more than just one pokemon. Also, Dragonite can't counter many pokemon? It has Hurricane which you showed us, Outrage, Aqua Tail, Thunder Punch, Fire Punch, Wing Attack. I don't know, that seems like a very broad moveset that can be used to counter a lot of things Mati. This goes to everyone, not just you. If you hate battling a certain poke, as Espeon in this case, the easiest solution is to strategize and form a new team that incorporates a counter. Isn't that the whole point of battling; Making new teams and becoming a better battler? There are so many counters that are viable battlers for 99% of the battling pokemon used in pwo. Sure, numbers might decide a battle but if you have a well balanced team, even pokes with OP movesets or stats won't be a problem.

I don't need you over-reacting over this post as well Mati, this was just my point of view on this.

 

[psychosamm]

Picture from my battle with KPyppo earlier, as you can see he easily 1-hit my espeon with full health.

huh, guess your espeon dont have gud stats , mine could take 1 outrage of mati s drago which have 298 atk i guess not sure if its 28 ivs, kyppo drago have 297.

My Espeon is decent, its defenses aren't the best though, as you can see here. The main point of the SS was to show that Espeon can be killed in one hit by Drago, since everyone seemed to think it was an impossible task.

And Mati I must applaud the effort you've made here. You put a lot of work into that post and you've earned back a large amount of respect from me.

- To clarify what I've said about Espeon not getting OHKO'd by Dragonite, here's 1 video:
Shiny Dragonite vs uberish Espeon (Kaos2201)
Extra: Dragonite has max atk, max hp and max sp.def(letting you know these 3 stats, wich are the ones that a dragonite needs against Espeon) - Espeon survived and almost killed a SHINY* Dragonite. Wich one is worse and wich one is OP ? With Espeon having a base SPD of 110 ( Max spd 253 at lvl99) he will counter almost every pokemon with his non-nerfed move called Future Sight... while Dragonite CAN'T counter many pokemons, ''Oh no mati but Dragonite has many def!!! noob!'' I'll repeat what I've said, Dragonite base SPD is 80, meanst that you can easily counter a Drago with a faster pokemon, no need to make a list of counters right ?

I don't really think that an Espeon with great defenses not being killed in one hit by Outrage is...outrageous *ba dum tss As for Drago not being able to counter pokemon simply because of his speed is a bit of an exaggeration. Drago now has a very versatile moveset that can counter a large portion of all the different types, just because he's slower than some doesnt mean his moves no longer hold any merit. Same with Espeon, she has 1 useful move (or two if you add psychic) the only reason Espeon is used is simply because of its speed. Espeon is pretty frail and is easily killed in a hit or two, just like most psychic pokemon.

Reference to the point number 2 - Solar beam:

I agree with you that Solar beam should be weakened.

-Nothing much to say really, was explained in the top (reference points).
Flygon vs a Badly Tyranitar

-And this one:
Flygon vs Shiny Rhydon

As for the fight with tyranitar i didn't really see anything out of the ordinary, EQ is 100 base power and Ttar has 134 base attack, it should do quite a bit of damage even if it is normal effectiveness.
I must admit i was surprised how much damage Rhydon did, but if you really think about it EQ does 100 damage plus STAB which makes it 150, along with Rhydon's 130 base attack makes it quite deadly. It's nothing to be shocked about once you really think about it. In the end though its obviously not super-effective on Flygon, and it was just a poor word choice on your part originally, sorry if I got a bit snippy before.

Reference to the point number 4 - Future Sight:

Yes Future sight is very powerful, Espeon has 130 Base Spatk, FS has 100 power plus STAB which makes it 150. With its speed it can be quite deadly. However like I said before it compensates this strength with a weak body, and generally gets killed within 1 to 2 hits. (if they were smart attacks) But calling FS OP is a bit of an exaggeration, Psychic plus STAB would make it 135, its a difference, but it's not really enough to be calling FS OP. (Unless you're only calling it that because its broken)

Future Sight 100 BP - 90 % ACC (Considering that Psichic has 90 BP and 100% ACC )

I actually kind of like this idea, I won't deny FS is broken, but I would suggest that Future Sight's change reflect what they do to Outrage. Which i think Outrage should only either be increased 5pts and keep accuracy the same, or make the accuracy 100 and keep the power the same. So essentially FS either be 95 power and 100 acc, or 100 power and 95 acc. Because it's really not horribly overpowered like you make it out to be.

 

[Tecknician]

Quick question

Why wasn't outrage, solarbeam, future sight, and any other move not belonging to slaking an issue before the update?

 

[BRGodEastwood]

Quick question

Why wasn't outrage, solarbeam, future sight, and any other move not belonging to slaking an issue before the update?

Why complain if no one was there to hear em?


If a tree falls in a forest, and no one is there to hear it.. Does it make a sound?

 

[Tecknician]

Quick question

Why wasn't outrage, solarbeam, future sight, and any other move not belonging to slaking an issue before the update?

Why complain if no one was there to hear em?


If a tree falls in a forest, and no one is there to hear it.. Does it make a sound?

In that case, I'm scheduling a vacation, see you all in 4 months.