Dragonite's outrage poll

[Nikola]

-Solarbeam is something that made few pokemon useful such as Meganium and Venusaur and that is why no one is complaining about it. It is only good move on those two. And move itself isn't a big deal.

-Futuresight is mostly used by a pokemon having 130/135 based Sp.Atk and 110/120 based Speed. You cannot say that move itself is fine since since it is heavily broken in every aspect of meaning. Why would you allow that pokemon is using heavy broken move with output power of 150 and yet 130/135 based Sp.Atk. Those pokemons are already having 2/3 psychic moves with power of 90/100 such as Psychic (90) and kinda broken Dream eater which is (100). I am sure you will not feel that dream eater is having same power as future sight does since it is being used by a lower based Sp.Atk pokemons or it's being used by non psychic pokemon. I don't see any other move as problem for now since it has been taken care of them and most of those are working just fine. Only thing Im looking forward is a move type split as I said earlier certain moves are being used by a different type such as elementary fangs and punches being used by Sp.Atk instead of Atk. Most of the moves are working just fine. And I've mentioned future sight obviously for a reason. To avoid confusion all I am suggesting is to decrease power of Future sight from 100 to 90 and Outrage to be 100% accurate having power of 95. That is my opinion and when i think better... 5 points of accuracy should not harm to anyone while 5 points of power can.

 

[Tecknician]

Future sight should have 100 base power. Double checking now.

Edit: Confirmed Darcia, future sight is 100 base power, not 150.

 

[BRGodEastwood]

To avoid confusion all I am suggesting is to decrease power of Future sight from 100 to 90 and Outrage to be 100% accurate having power of 95. That is my opinion and when i think better... 5 points of accuracy should not harm to anyone while 5 points of power can.

 

[Nikola]

Future sight should have 100 base power. Double checking now.

Edit: Confirmed Darcia, future sight is 100 base power, not 150.

100 x 1.5 = Output power of 150. I added STAB bonus as well and thanks Bis.

 

[crenel]

Darcia,

Just because I'm curious -- why not change Future Sight to have 95 power and 100% accuracy, too? Surely if shifting Outrage's power 5 points is a big deal, such an adjustment would be a big deal for Future Sight as well?

I'm just trying to make sure we're not catering to an agenda here. Why must Outrage be more powerful than Future Sight? Why must Future Sight change? Why must Outrage change? If Future Sight is to change, why must it lose 10 power rather than 5?

-crenel

 

[EcoWOLFrb]

-Solarbeam is something that made few pokemon useful such as Meganium and Venusaur and that is why no one is complaining about it. It is only good move on those two. And move itself isn't a big deal. .... ect. ect.

But how can you say one move should be nerfed because it's making a pokemon better than it was in game (espeon/ kazam), and and another move is fine because oh the exact same reason(venasaur/meganium) when neither of them are amazing base stat pseudo legendaries, and solar beam is in fact MORE powerful? Look, I agree with slaking and Dragonite being nerfed, because they are psuedo legendary OP pokemon with defects, that in reality only have a couple of good counters with their original power moves. However now that the playing field has been leveled there are more counters to each pokemon, as there should be. You don't need to have a lapras on your team just in case anymore...there are other options. And there are other options for Dragonite as well, with usable water fire and electric elementals at his hand he's become much more versatile.
The psychic Pokemon you're speaking of generally have 1 good attack, and more and more pokemon have dark, or ghost moves, not to mention they're both OHKO for any powerful pokemon as they're made almost entirely of glass it seems. New possibilities are abundant but you focus on such petty things as a pokemon having +5 more power in a 1 attack type pokemon than any other spatk move with 100 accuracy (future sight 100, thunderbotl/brine 95). Don't forget Dragonite now has the destructive power it did before with hurricane + more diverse moves + a still very usable outrage. Hurricane does just as much damage as the old outrage, it's just that it's a risk that many people take all the time with thunder...as it should be. So in all reality dragonite can do MUCH more damage with hurricane than espeon or kazam can with future sight. I really don't see a problem here.

 

[matileo19]

Darcia,

Just because I'm curious -- why not change Future Sight to have 95 power and 100% accuracy, too? Surely if shifting Outrage's power 5 points is a big deal, such an adjustment would be a big deal for Future Sight as well?

I'm just trying to make sure we're not catering to an agenda here. Why must Outrage be more powerful than Future Sight? Why must Future Sight change? Why must Outrage change? If Future Sight is to change, why must it lose 10 power rather than 5?

-crenel

Future sigh / Outrage / Solarbeam -> 100 % accuracy 95 power sounds pretty fair. And espeon is somehow overpowered.

 

[Nikola]

Darcia,

Just because I'm curious -- why not change Future Sight to have 95 power and 100% accuracy, too? Surely if shifting Outrage's power 5 points is a big deal, such an adjustment would be a big deal for Future Sight as well?

I'm just trying to make sure we're not catering to an agenda here. Why must Outrage be more powerful than Future Sight? Why must Future Sight change? Why must Outrage change? If Future Sight is to change, why must it lose 10 power rather than 5?

-crenel

Future Sight is a move that requires two turns in order to work efficiently while every other move mentioned above requires only one. Since it needs to rest two turns why not remove 5 points for every turn? Outrage was decreased from 120 to 95 and yet accuracy of that move is 95. I am quite sure that nerfing future sight by a 5 points would mean a lot but from other side accuracy of 100 somehow doesn't fit in this combination since I know that move is heavily broken and I think something must be done with it because it is a fatal broken move. At least decreasing it by a 5 points would mean allot since you are going to tweak a broken move and you will know that you made a right decision since you modified a broken move. I guess Outrage would be perfect with accuracy of 100 having power of 95 or power 100 but accuracy 95%.

-Outrage power was decreased by a 25 points and its accuracy by 5 points. I am quite sure that 25 of power is enough to compensate possible confusion. Even Slaking didn't suffered more then Dragonite. I am not saying that Outrage should be more powerful then Future Sight. I am saying that they must have some sort of balance. It is just striking every move and I cannot implement any tactic there such as choosing a dark type pokemon after two turns when Future Sight is supposed to strike.

- Take Kangaskam for example. People were thinking that she's going to be a perfect counter for dragons but she is having a hard time to take down even Kingdra. Either she will miss or she will not give enough damage to achieve victory. That is why I was suggestion this. There are few pokemons using outrage besides Dragonite and any change made for that move will reflect on other pokemons such as Kangaskam and Kangaskam needs just a little to be fully competitive in battles as you wanted her to be. Try to look into that pokemon like "low budget" Kangaskam and "high budget" Kangaskam. Since pokemon was meant to be competitive why not offer opportunity to a people who cannot afford it. Instead of ubber Atk, decent one will do it's job and same thing with Dragonite.
-

 

[EcoWOLFrb]

100 x 1.5 = Output power of 150. I added STAB bonus as well

And about this...it's not too far off from Drago with 95 outrage
95 x 1.5= 142.5
Take into account Drago's base atk of 134, and it really can't be too far from espeon's future sight with his base spatk of 130 right? Even with kazam's 135 base spatk, You could argue that the 3 are on similar offensive levels with these two moves right?

Now let's look at other base stats, Dragonite is by far the defensive superior...I don't believe I should have to go into detail about this, so let's end it there. Offensively Dragonite is better than espeon and about the same as kazam with the main stat (atk for drago, and spatk for espeon and kazam). Drago also has a very good spatk of 100, while kazam has no physical moves to speak of, and espeon has 65 base atk for its one physical move of last resort. Now that the other stats have been leaned towards dragonite's way, speed for them is incomparable. Both kazam and espeon have much higher speed than Dragonite. Winrars---offensive- dragonite, defensive- dragonite, speed- esp/kazam

Now we look at moves these three have. Dragonite has hurricane which ...well.... 120 x 1.5= 180.... far from future sight's power. And on top of that, he has thunderpunch, fire punch, aqua tail, other choices for dragon and flying moves, and even a paralyzing thunder wave. And with a high stat spatk as well...I think it's hardly something to complain about when you compare it to ...well nothing for kazam that varies from a slightly weaker psychic move, and last resort for espeon which is really only useful against another psychic or a dark type...I think it speaks for itself who wins in this category.

If you look at counters for both these pokemon I think you'll find that Dragonite has an advantage here as well, it would be too long to go into any depth.
Please don't take this as being rude or anything, this is purely my love of debating speaking

 

[Nikola]

EcoWOLFrb...are you trying to compare those with Dragon pokemons by any chance...or put them in same rank with Dragons?

 

[EcoWOLFrb]

EcoWOLFrb...are you trying to compare those with Dragon pokemons by any chance...or put them in same rank with Dragons?

Same rank? As if these pokemon are on a completely different level? Pokemon are Pokemon man, you cant start saying that certain Pokemon shouldn't be able to beat others simply because of the OBVIOUS difference in stature between psychics and dragons! lol
But to answer your question, no. I was comparing your agument, which was that future sight was OP...to your defense, which was that Dragonites current power is inadequate. I did so in order to show that there's virtually no difference in power between the current situation with the two broken moves, in order to show the insignificance of future sight compared to the old outrage, being that they are now about the same. Not only that, but to show dragonite's obvious superiority compared to the two pokemon that use future sight when it comes in virtually all other aspects in battle with the new update.
I'd also like to hear from unbiased perspectives of those who don't have epic dragons

 

[crenel]

Darcia,

While it may be true that Future Sight is not intended to deal its damage immediately, it is also true that a large amount of our battle system does not work correctly. Future Sight is no different than other multi-turn moves, such as Giga Impact, Hyper Beam, Solarbeam and Sky Attack. Just as Outrage is also important to Kangaskhan, Future Sight is important to more than just Espeon and Alakazam. Xatu currently gets by almost exclusively because of Future Sight.

What overall ramifications would there be to a Future Sight nerf? How would the competitive environment change? Would such a change improve the overall health of the game, or would it cause more harm than good?

You don't seem to be asking these questions. Furthermore, the point of this topic was, by several pages of discussion and your own admission, about Dragonite. (See: "Dragonite is a pseudo legendary pokemon and I don't want that people are using him as a test experiment."). Kangaskhan was not even considered until I pointed her needs out.

I don't doubt that you believe that you are fighting for a good cause, but you need to take a step back and re-evaluate what it is you're posting. The reality that I am seeing is that when you say that you want a more competitive environment, what you're really saying is that you want a more competitive environment for Dragonite. Balancing moves isn't as simple as directing numbers at a handful of popular Pokemon and saying, "hey yeah, this feels good, these five Pokemon should be more competitive against each other like this."

Additionally, I find the following attitude to be deplorable in the context of Pokemon: "Since pokemon was meant to be competitive why not offer opportunity to a people who cannot afford it." Personally? I hate that Pokemon are able to be traded for $P. I don't believe that Pokemon should be 'affordable' -- I believe that Pokemon should be Pokemon, and should be available. I believe that other things should be 'affordable'; things that we haven't even gotten close to adding into the game yet.

-crenel

 

[Nikola]

Darcia,

While it may be true that Future Sight is not intended to deal its damage immediately, it is also true that a large amount of our battle system does not work correctly. Future Sight is no different than other multi-turn moves, such as Giga Impact, Hyper Beam, Solarbeam and Sky Attack. Just as Outrage is also important to Kangaskhan, Future Sight is important to more than just Espeon and Alakazam. Xatu currently gets by almost exclusively because of Future Sight.

I cannot see how Espeon or Alakazam are in need for broken Future Sight while they are having perfectly working Psychic and base Sp.Atk of 130/135. Xatu would be something far more fair then those two since it has both Speed and Sp.Atk base of 95. Xatu can only show how bad Future Sight really works on higher base stats and speed pokemon.

What overall ramifications would there be to a Future Sight nerf? How would the competitive environment change? Would such a change improve the overall health of the game, or would it cause more harm than good?

-crenel...it cannot do any harm at all. Mostly of those pokemons are already covered with very decent moves such as Psychic. I could blink an eye if they are having only Future Sight as psychic type move but seeing that they are having more moves I cannot. Hell...Dream eater is also broken and no one will ever mention it because its being used by lower Spd/Sp.Atk pokemon or pokemon who doesn't offering a STAB.

You don't seem to be asking these questions. Furthermore, the point of this topic was, by several pages of discussion and your own admission, about Dragonite. (See: "Dragonite is a pseudo legendary pokemon and I don't want that people are using him as a test experiment."). Kangaskhan was not even considered until I pointed her needs out.

"Dragonite is a pseudo legendary pokemon and I don't want that people are using him as a test experiment"
That is whole reason why I am trying to show you all this. He is suffering from unnatural nerf. Good proposal was given when I created this topic crenel. I am not selfish and I don't want only Dragonite to be more competitive. Others pokemon and moves would be also covered by accuracy of 100%. And it doesn't look good when you miss that move in most critical moment. I was curious what will other people say about Outrage accuracy and I am glad to see that majority of people that I am seeing every day in battle channel supported accuracy of 100%.
- Only thing I admitted is that I am not satisfied with Outrage. Don't think that I am selfish and that I want only 1 of a few pokemon used in battles to be more buffed. Accuracy of 100% wouldn't do any harm at all.

I don't doubt that you believe that you are fighting for a good cause, but you need to take a step back and re-evaluate what it is you're posting. The reality that I am seeing is that when you say that you want a more competitive environment, what you're really saying is that you want a more competitive environment for Dragonite. Balancing moves isn't as simple as directing numbers at a handful of popular Pokemon and saying, "hey yeah, this feels good, these five Pokemon should be more competitive against each other like this."

- I said before and I am well aware what I've said. There are cute pokemons and from other side there pokemons meant to fight. You cannot put every of them on battle scene for Christ's sake. There is a chance that few pokemons can jump on battle scene and there is a key...to make people use other pokemons.
-My wishes are pure and clean and far as i know I newer fought for a bad cause. I ain't made that way.

Additionally, I find the following attitude to be deplorable in the context of Pokemon: "Since pokemon was meant to be competitive why not offer opportunity to a people who cannot afford it." Personally? I hate that Pokemon are able to be traded for $P. I don't believe that Pokemon should be 'affordable' -- I believe that Pokemon should be Pokemon, and should be available. I believe that other things should be 'affordable'; things that we haven't even gotten close to adding into the game yet.

-I can see what are you trying to say though. But I really want that people visit more often their "rusty" part of a PC. It is not easy to catch a perfect pokemon and we all know that. If they catch 3/4 Kangaskams during their way on a battle scene they can make useful at least one. Battle scene begins to fade and we are aware of that. There are only 10/12 people who are actually battling. We cannot change that over night. But we must be happy since we tried to make changes. If there is something broken...if issue is somewhere we must start to seek a problem before we start to plan a fix for it. Solving problems one by one is far more easy then solving hundreds of them at same time and I am sure you agree with that.

 

[matileo19]

Here we go with an example (3 battle simulations, with the 3 last pokes in my opponent hands and 2 in my hands):

I am using espeon full HP and Jolteon, while my opp has Salamence half HP, dragonite full hp and Lapras.

1- OPP: Salamence uses Crunch
1- Me: Metagross uses Meteor mash
2- OPP: Salamence uses Fire fang
Metagross has fainted
I send out Espeon
3- OPP: cant attack first, espeon is faster
3- Me: Espeon uses future sigh
Salamence has fainted
the opp sends out dragonite
4-Me: Espeon uses future sigh
4- OPPragonite uses outrage - the attack miss
5- Me: Espeon uses future sigh (lets think that drago has good hp and good sp.def)
5- OPP: Dragonite uses outrage
6- Me: Espeon uses last resort
Dragonite has fainted
the opp sends out Lapras
7- Me: Espeon uses future sight
7- Lapras uses brine
Espeon has fainted
I send out jolteon and I won the battle.

2nd battle simulation (same pokes exept mines, im now using Drago and jolty

1-OPP: Salamence uses Crunch
1- Me: Metagross uses MEteor mash - the attack miss
2- OPP: Salamence uses fire fang
Metagross has fainted
I send out Dragonite
3- OPP: Salamence uses dragon claw - its super efective!
3- Me: Dragonite uses outrage - its super efective!
Salamence has fainted
the opp sends out Dragonite (they don't have the same spd wich is what the opp doesnt know and the opp doesnt want a lapras with less than half HP just to kill a dragonite, thats why he sends out his Drago)
4- Me: Dragonite uses outrage - the attack miss
4- OPP: Dragonite uses outrage - its super efective!
Dragonite has fainted
I send out Jolteon
5- Me: Jolteon uses thunder
5- OPP: Dragonite uses outrage - wot, jolteon survived against a pseudo legendary!
6- Me: Jolteon uses thunder
Dragonite has fainted
the opp sends out Lapras
and he wins unless he has an ugly lappy.

3r battle simulation, the opp has espeon, snorlax and tyranitar and Im using Dragonite, Salamence and Flygon

1- OPP: Tyranitar uses earthquake
Shiny Rhydon has fainted
I send out Flygon (I have no choice, because while now drago has aqua tail, stone edge eats him anyway)
2- Me: FLygon uses sand tomb (Im lucky, sand tomb hits x5 with deals more than half op on ttar)
2- OPP: Tyranitar uses earthquake - its super efective
3- Me: Flygon uses earthquake
Tyranitar has fainted
The opp sends out espeon
4-OPP: espeon uses future sigh
Flygon has fainted
hmm... what should I do now? Sala should be able to kill him and I own one of the best salamences so, lets try
I send out salamence
5-OPP: Espeon uses future sigh
5-Me: Salamence uses Crunch - its super efective! lol...
6-OPP: Espeon uses future sigh
Salamence has fainted
I send out Dragonite
7-OPP: Espeon uses future sigh
7-Me: Dragonite uses wing attack
Espeon has fainted
The OPP sends out Snorlax
He wins with a last resort.

Just to make sure you all understand, these are REAL situations, not a part of my imagination, I hope this helps a bit. As I said, Espeon remembers me to Tauros (I know the are not exactly the same thing, but a bit similar) a proud counter to kill espeon is Metagross or Tyranitar, same that we've used for tauros, list of killing list from each:

Tauros (when giga impact was OP):
Salamence
Dragonite
Jolteon
Snorlax
Venusaur
exeggutor
Charizard
Typhlosion
Arcanine
Raichu
S gyarados
Swampert
S kingdra
Cloyster
S Machamp (My S tauros was able to kill them)
S nidoking
S primeape
Sometimes aeros
Etc.

Espeon:
Salamence
Dragonite
Jolteon (deals damage)
Snorlax (deals damage)
Venusaur
exeggutor (deals damage)
Charizard
Typhlosion
Arcanine
Raichu
S gyarados
Swampert
S kingdra
Cloyster
S Machamp (My S tauros was able to kill them)
S nidoking
S primeape
Aerodactyl (deals damage now that aero has crunch, but used to kill them)
etc.

Picking the same list from Tauros, there's not a big difference. Now dragonite

Dragonite (with the current outrage):
Salamence (if outrage hits...)
Dragonite (if outrage hits...)
Jolteon (If thunder miss 1 turn and if outrage hits...)
Snorlax (no chance)
Venusaur
exeggutor
Charizard
Typhlosion
Arcanine
Raichu (If thunder miss 1 turn and if outrage hits...)
S gyarados (if outrage hits...)
Swampert
S kingdra (no chance)
Cloyster (no chance)
S Machamp
S nidoking
S primeape
Aerodactyl ((no chance)

I won't put the 386 pokemons lol... may be next time, but its enough to compare them a bit ? This also shows that Tauros is now useless, Trash also needs an updte.

 

[HOF69]

Snorlax (Have no chance)
Cloyster (Have no chance)
Aerodactyl (Have no chance)

Just wanted to point out a few things about Dragonite vs. these 3 pokes mati, and this is all speaking from experience using a Dragonite with uber attack and max special attack.

- Uber snorlax can beat Dragonite, mine's lost to plenty of them after hitting 2 Outrages.
- If Cloyster has enough HP and special defense, it can tank Thunderpunch.
- If Rock Slide doesn't miss, Aerodactyl easily beats Dragonite (Aqua Tail or Outrage can't OHKO even a decent Aero), and uber attack Aero can 2 hit Dragonite with Ancientpower.

So while these matchups aren't guaranteed wins for any poke, Snorlax, Cloyster, and Aerodactyl certainly have more than a chance to win. Just wanted to point that out.

 

[EcoWOLFrb]

So Mati whats really wrong with all these simulations?
1- Using multiple dragons has its flaws
2- for some reason crunch is being used against metagross instead of fire....
3- While the simulations are all possible...thousands of other things are possible as well
4- You're acting as if drago not OHKO'ing Jolteon is sacrilege, when in reality you're just used to it being crazy OP, and spoiled.
5- Certain Pokemon are made to beat others... you're expecting something that's super effective without stab to instantly kill anything as long as your Epic Pseudo legendary is using it.
6- Dragonite can miss against another Dragonite, if yours can, so can his. Luck is part of battling.
7- If you would have gone back to when outrage was 120, you would've had outrage KO'ing up to three pokemon before Drago is taken out...the reason I'm bringing this up is because I don't believe you would've been up in arms about that. Which means you're heavily biased towards Drago (which being that he's your favorite, and you have some of the best in game...no one can blame you).
8- in the same way that you would use Lapras as a counter for Dragons...you should have a counter for psychics if you're that worried. And now there are some very good counters, like Tyranitar...who can also counter Dragons. He's also Pseudo Legendary ...so you should love him, I know I do.
I'm sure there are many more but these are just what came to mind.

 

[matileo19]

Snorlax (Have no chance)
Cloyster (Have no chance)
Aerodactyl (Have no chance)[/color]

Just wanted to point out a few things about Dragonite vs. these 3 pokes mati, and this is all speaking from experience using a Dragonite with uber attack and max special attack.

- Uber snorlax can beat Dragonite, mine's lost to plenty of them after hitting 2 Outrages.
- If Cloyster has enough HP and special defense, it can tank Thunderpunch.
- If Rock Slide doesn't miss, Aerodactyl easily beats Dragonite (Aqua Tail or Outrage can't OHKO even a decent Aero), and uber attack Aero can 2 hit Dragonite with Ancientpower.

So while these matchups aren't guaranteed wins for any poke, Snorlax, Cloyster, and Aerodactyl certainly have more than a chance to win. Just wanted to point that out.

And thats completely right Hof, specially for aero and another thing Tyranitar's eartquake sucks a lot... what's the reason ?.

__________________________________

Im not putting this battle simulations to defend Dragonite. You're the only one acting as if you were in love with espeon, not us... the topic was made to argue about outrage after all. Im complaining about espeon's and his OP move at all* and if you check the list, what I said has a bit of sence, as you said '' the loved pseudo legendary '' kills less pokes than 1 psichic and to point out that tauros sucks now. If you hate dragons just say it lol... because that's what seems like, your last answer doesnt makes sence after what i've provide.

 

[EcoWOLFrb]

Im not putting this battle simulations to defend Dragonite. You're the only one acting as if you were in love with espeon, not us... the topic was made to argue about outrage after all. Im complaining about espeon's and his OP move at all* and if you check the list, what I said has a bit of sence, as you said '' the loved pseudo legendary '' kills less pokes than 1 psichic and to point out that tauros sucks now. If you hate dragons just say it lol... because that's what seems like, your last answer doesnt makes sence after what i've provide.

I know you're complaining about how OP Espeon is, I'm defending it. I Like Espeon yes, but if you refer to my previous comments you can see that it's no more OP than Drago's current state. It's speed is balanced by its low defenses, and lack of variation in moves. I actually use Kazam more now, because of Gengar and Froslass.
The notion that I hate dragons is Laughable.Look at my sig dude, Dragonite is my third fav pokemon. That doesn't mean I can't be unbiased. I would defend any other situation like this in what I found to be the fairest stance. I think Dragonite and Salamence are two of the best pokes in PWO, as they should be. HOWEVER, there should be a limit to their power, and counters. Right now i think it's in a good range, and I wouldnt complain about any of the above options.
I will Agree that Tauros is a shadow of what it once was, which is unfortunate, as it provided another pokemon with which to battle, and diversify the teams.

 

[BRGodEastwood]

tyranitars earthquake sucks because dragons are flying, tyraniter is rock/dark, and it gets no stab....

 

[matileo19]

tyranitars earthquake sucks because dragons are flying, tyraniter is rock/dark, and it gets no stab....

I wasn't talking about earthquake against dragons...
___________________________________________________

Rhydon
HP:105
ATK:130
DEF:120
SPD:40
SP ATK:45
SP DEF:45
Type 1:Ground Type 2:Rock

Tyranitar
HP:100
ATK:134
DEF:110
SPD:61
SP ATK:95
SP DEF:100
Type 1:Rock Type 2ark

Rhydon's earthquake does more damage than tyranytar's earthquake...