Dragonite's outrage poll
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If I may take a stab at that question Teck, I believe it is because before your massive moveset update (and even after crenel's update last August) that good battling pokes were few and far between. Battlers were limited to a short list of pokes that included Slaking, pseudo-legendaries, and pokes that had been updated by crenel or other staff in the past to have 5th generation movesets. It wasn't uncommon for two people battling to have very similar teams, and as such no one complained because everyone had the pokes with powerful moves like the ones you listed, or they had pokes to counter those (e.g. Charizard for Slaking). With the recent update, there has been an influx of a diverse number of new battlers, many of which are useful but at times overwhelmed by 100+ power moves or lacking their own to use. I can imagine the frustration of wanting to use a new poke, only to find that the short list of battlers I mentioned before still dominates the battling scene. As such, people want some of these powerful moves (like Outrage) nerfed in order to even the playing field and make more pokes useful in battle. With the majority of non-damaging moves broken, battling is all about putting out the most damage. Not trying to state a preference with regards to nerfing powerful moves. These are just my thoughts in response to your question.
Tecknician
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So then, rank from having the most impact to having the least impact what could be added to change the battle scene from damage only to a mixture of damage + something else.
Nikola
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Tecknician said:
-If I recall correctly no one was complaining that Outrage is OP before crenel's update yet everyone was complaining that Slaking is OP. People were using same teams with OP pokemons where pokemons such as Espeon and Alakazam didn't had a chance to defeat Dragonite, Tauros or Slaking. With last update made many pokemons became more viable while those remained intact. Kingdra, Arcanine, Heracross, Primeape, are some of the pokemons who got updated but from other side they cannot defeat decent Espeon or Alakazam even if they got 100% updated. Those pokemons weren't used before though and chances that someone will notice that huge gap between those was very low Teck.
-More ironic thing is that Kingdra tends to survive outrage from Dragonite since power is only 95. Quite abnormal thing seeing that super common can take super HR and yet Dragonite. I will post few images down there in spoiler.
1. Dragonite missing twice in row.
2. Espeon finished Feraligatr and defeated Dragonite and Gengar. Outrage wasn't enough to get rid of espeon and yet It missed next turn.
3. Total domination of Espeon. Espeon defeated Feraligatr, Lapras, Kingdra, Swampert and took much hp from Omastar.
4. Again Espeon defeated Salamence, Primeape and gave very much damage to Kingdra.
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Darcia.. why are you using sleep moves in your screenshot instead of attacking lol
psychosamm
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I was about to say the same thing, someone was being a mega noob just throwing out Sing and Yawn, an attack against Espeon wasnt even thrown out until Swampert, that's the only reason why Espeon was able to defeat all those pokemon, once it was actually attacked it only needed 2 attacks in order to kill it.Bis_Eastwood said:
In reference to number 2: Fera was already damaged, Espeon being faster killed it. No big deal. That Espeon must've had good defenses, Outrage missed, it was simply unlucky considering it only misses 5% of the time. And the SS doesn't say Gengar fainted, but i wouldn't be surprised considering its super effective.
In reference to 4: It only took 2 attacks to kill espeon. Surprisngly crunch didn't kill it, but that Espeon probably had good defenses, the fact it lived doesn't have anything to do with FS. It did kill Sala, but defensively Sala is about the same as Flygon, if it survives a crunch it shouldn't be too surprising that Sala would die. As for Primape not only was it injured but just about any psychic move would one hit ape. And it damaged kingdra just because it went first. A large majority of Espeon's power is in it's speed, should we decrease that too?
matileo19
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Jesus... the fact is: Future Sight is OP* , specially if its being used by a pokemon such as Espeon... can't any of you admit that it should be fixed ? I gave you videos, Darcia gave you some SS... I don't understand what you want.
alright, i didnt want to get into this, but.
Darcia ~ You posted SS' of using only sleep inducing moves, and only 1 pokemon really used any damaging moves. Not only that, but the Espeon must have had some really good HP/Defense to take that. Now, if Lapras had ACTUALLY attacked, perhaps Espeon wouldn't have taken out those Pokemon.
What im trying to say is, FutureSight is OP, yes, but what was demonstrated in the screenshot was something in which sleep inducing moves were attempted.
Darcia ~ You posted SS' of using only sleep inducing moves, and only 1 pokemon really used any damaging moves. Not only that, but the Espeon must have had some really good HP/Defense to take that. Now, if Lapras had ACTUALLY attacked, perhaps Espeon wouldn't have taken out those Pokemon.
What im trying to say is, FutureSight is OP, yes, but what was demonstrated in the screenshot was something in which sleep inducing moves were attempted.
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By this logic you may as well "fix" all of the other two turn moves. Solar beam and the like.matileo19 said:
It's not future sight in itself that's overpowered, it's more of the poke that's using it that makes it so powerful.
Also, Last resort should be nerfed as well. It's 140 base power with no sort of requirement for it to be used like it should have.
plus the only reason why you're complaining is because you keep losing battles over it
Nikola
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I was in battle with seena(~MYSTOGAN~). They are having sleep move on almost every pokemon. I just extracted few images from hundreds of videos though. No one told them what moves they are going to use though. Just to prove my statement above that Outrage is missing to much and having troubles to defeat Espeon and Kindgra.Bis_Eastwood said:
EDIT: You've noticed that my opponent is using sleeping moves right? and you did noticed that my Espeon killed both Dragonite and Salamence right?
psychosamm
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I'll pull a you, maybe you should actually ready my reply to you, then you'll actually see that I agreed FS is broken. It's shocking what can happen when you actually read the opponent's replies.matileo19 said:
matileo19
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psychosamm said:
Lets try to keep in topic without going off-topic... Darcia posted some SS and I agree to what MrFlare said about them, but this is still being discussed when it should have ended... I don't understand the opponents thing lol or I dont want to...
psychosamm
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What are you talking about? I'm not going off topic, you're saying that no one has admitted it's broken and that you don't know what we want. I directed you to my previous post that answered that, that you failed to read.matileo19 said:
that was really unlucky with lax...I would be annoyed, but I wonder how many times that happens compared to not missing.
I don't see a problem with the second set of SS, just shows what a good defense espeon with some luck.
The third set of SS is literally intentionally made to make espeon look bad...could have killed him MUCH quicker. Maybe if you threw out a counter instead...
Maybe that sala needs alittle more attack, or that espeon is very good defensively, either esp is literally made to beat fighting types, and usually sala will kill esp. Damaged espeon should do damage to kingdra...nothing new here
Here's what I think- Future sight is broken, yes. But I don't think it's as OP as you all say. You just hate that esp can outspeed almost everything, and it can take 1 (yes, only 1) hit
Solar beam- Very Very Broken...more powerful than future fight, BUT it isn't on a pokemon that can kill pseudo legendaries so you don't care
Superpower/Close Combat- Slightly broken, only having 1/2 of the negative effect, but more powerful than future sight. Feraligatr, hera, primeape are OP with it, kills many pokemon but since it's only slightly better than in game....no one cares (espeon is only slightly better than in game too)
Wood Hammer- doesn't do it's recoil damage (half of what damage it does), and has 120 power (with exeggutor's 125 spatk) which is capable of doing much more damage than future sight. No one complains about it because....it cant kill ...you guessed it.
Giga Impact/Hyper beam- these moves attack first,after which the opponant is likely dead if used correctly. therefore I think a 50 damage difference is too severe if these other moves are allowed to stay. I vote for 110 damage so tauros can be possibly a little more useful,one pore poke capable of killing espeon with its speed.
Outrage, currently nerfed to a good power (95) I think everyone agrees that if it had 100% accuracy most of the complaints would be rendered moot. Dragonite is the topic here, and dragonite... which is now nerfed to 95 can do about the same damage as a future sight with espeon. If we assume that dragonite's outrage is NOT OP now (which is what all of you would agree) then you're contradicting yourself saying that Future sight is waaay OP, because the destructive capabilities are very comparable to a nerfed outrage. None of you complained that outrage was OP even when it was 120, how can you act as if future sight is the main OP move in all of PWO right now? If you're going to reply that drago is supposed to be the baddest beast in the game which is why it should be OP...I've already heard that... and my reply: diversification, leveling of the playing field... blah blah blah. Obviously it's not a good idea for crazy powerful dragonites in the game...the staff wouldn't have nerfed it if it wasn't a problem.
I don't see a problem with the second set of SS, just shows what a good defense espeon with some luck.
The third set of SS is literally intentionally made to make espeon look bad...could have killed him MUCH quicker. Maybe if you threw out a counter instead...
Maybe that sala needs alittle more attack, or that espeon is very good defensively, either esp is literally made to beat fighting types, and usually sala will kill esp. Damaged espeon should do damage to kingdra...nothing new here
Here's what I think- Future sight is broken, yes. But I don't think it's as OP as you all say. You just hate that esp can outspeed almost everything, and it can take 1 (yes, only 1) hit
Solar beam- Very Very Broken...more powerful than future fight, BUT it isn't on a pokemon that can kill pseudo legendaries so you don't care
Superpower/Close Combat- Slightly broken, only having 1/2 of the negative effect, but more powerful than future sight. Feraligatr, hera, primeape are OP with it, kills many pokemon but since it's only slightly better than in game....no one cares (espeon is only slightly better than in game too)
Wood Hammer- doesn't do it's recoil damage (half of what damage it does), and has 120 power (with exeggutor's 125 spatk) which is capable of doing much more damage than future sight. No one complains about it because....it cant kill ...you guessed it.
Giga Impact/Hyper beam- these moves attack first,after which the opponant is likely dead if used correctly. therefore I think a 50 damage difference is too severe if these other moves are allowed to stay. I vote for 110 damage so tauros can be possibly a little more useful,one pore poke capable of killing espeon with its speed.
Outrage, currently nerfed to a good power (95) I think everyone agrees that if it had 100% accuracy most of the complaints would be rendered moot. Dragonite is the topic here, and dragonite... which is now nerfed to 95 can do about the same damage as a future sight with espeon. If we assume that dragonite's outrage is NOT OP now (which is what all of you would agree) then you're contradicting yourself saying that Future sight is waaay OP, because the destructive capabilities are very comparable to a nerfed outrage. None of you complained that outrage was OP even when it was 120, how can you act as if future sight is the main OP move in all of PWO right now? If you're going to reply that drago is supposed to be the baddest beast in the game which is why it should be OP...I've already heard that... and my reply: diversification, leveling of the playing field... blah blah blah. Obviously it's not a good idea for crazy powerful dragonites in the game...the staff wouldn't have nerfed it if it wasn't a problem.
Tecknician
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All this bickering.
Locking topic until I either review the information, I have a question, or I think everyone involve can go back to having a civilized conversation.
Locking topic until I either review the information, I have a question, or I think everyone involve can go back to having a civilized conversation.
Tecknician
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OK, Just spent 45 minutes reading some of this topic from the beginning, skimming other parts, and flat out skip the parts that just weren't useful and was more he said she said you're wrong I'm right garbage.
First off, let me be clear on this. The battle system is NOT my job to deal with, I am only doing this because several staff members tried getting some changes implemented and this is just a continuation. I am not a dev, I am not in charge, expected, or have been told by any members of the staff I should be messing with the battle system at all.
Now, in regards to what has been said in this topic. A majority for the argument for outrage being buffed actually has all been tied to dragonite itself and not any other pokemon. So I personally feel you could give crap less about outrage itself as long as it has a move that does what you think is best for dragonite. A common theme for the pro-buff side is that because its a "pseudo legend" certain pokemon have no business having a chance at beating it. This point has me shaking my head because to me this is the same thing as wanting 5 or so pokemon better than every other pokemon. The entire point of updating the movesets was to place more pokemon on even grounds. I have a hard time in believing any argument for or against a chance to outrage in any way because it all seems like personal agendas. As for the acc of outrage, It seems obvious that the intention of the outrage nerf was to make it not hit all the time, yet It seems like there's a feeling of shock when it actually misses.
Future sight.
On the other hand, future sight has indeed caught my interest as something I do believe might be in a need of being changed. Without bringing espeon into thought, I came to this conclusion because of the fact it makes many other psychic moves like psychic useless because it's a better version of psychic. The only benefit psychic currently has is a small stat change, which is next to useless with how the current stat changing system works. This effectively makes psychic worthless and rarely used I would have to imagine. Instead of looking at changing it as compensating it as a broken move, I will be looking at is as a pure damage dealer and where it will fit into having its own niche.
A move being broken isn't reason enough for me to change it as long as it doesn't throw off any balances. Thus I haven't been presented with a reason to change the likes of solar beam. I will be looking into thrash after I get done looking into the future sight issue.
I would hate to do some balance changes at this point just to have to redo them again because of another change in player perception in a few weeks. It's been slightly over a week since the update, I would like to everyone more time to get adjusted. As saric mentioned, I highly doubt there will ever come a point where everyone is satisfied, everything is balanced, and no one wants to change anything so may as well try to figure out what point will everything be as balance as it gets.
Anyone wanting to reply to this topic, please PM me directly.
First off, let me be clear on this. The battle system is NOT my job to deal with, I am only doing this because several staff members tried getting some changes implemented and this is just a continuation. I am not a dev, I am not in charge, expected, or have been told by any members of the staff I should be messing with the battle system at all.
Now, in regards to what has been said in this topic. A majority for the argument for outrage being buffed actually has all been tied to dragonite itself and not any other pokemon. So I personally feel you could give crap less about outrage itself as long as it has a move that does what you think is best for dragonite. A common theme for the pro-buff side is that because its a "pseudo legend" certain pokemon have no business having a chance at beating it. This point has me shaking my head because to me this is the same thing as wanting 5 or so pokemon better than every other pokemon. The entire point of updating the movesets was to place more pokemon on even grounds. I have a hard time in believing any argument for or against a chance to outrage in any way because it all seems like personal agendas. As for the acc of outrage, It seems obvious that the intention of the outrage nerf was to make it not hit all the time, yet It seems like there's a feeling of shock when it actually misses.
Future sight.
On the other hand, future sight has indeed caught my interest as something I do believe might be in a need of being changed. Without bringing espeon into thought, I came to this conclusion because of the fact it makes many other psychic moves like psychic useless because it's a better version of psychic. The only benefit psychic currently has is a small stat change, which is next to useless with how the current stat changing system works. This effectively makes psychic worthless and rarely used I would have to imagine. Instead of looking at changing it as compensating it as a broken move, I will be looking at is as a pure damage dealer and where it will fit into having its own niche.
A move being broken isn't reason enough for me to change it as long as it doesn't throw off any balances. Thus I haven't been presented with a reason to change the likes of solar beam. I will be looking into thrash after I get done looking into the future sight issue.
I would hate to do some balance changes at this point just to have to redo them again because of another change in player perception in a few weeks. It's been slightly over a week since the update, I would like to everyone more time to get adjusted. As saric mentioned, I highly doubt there will ever come a point where everyone is satisfied, everything is balanced, and no one wants to change anything so may as well try to figure out what point will everything be as balance as it gets.
Anyone wanting to reply to this topic, please PM me directly.
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