Revamped Dragons Den quest - Removal of water lab

[CheckeredZebra]

I fail to understand why people believe there are more cons than pros at this point. What I say next may be harsh, but it is truthful. I'll try to not be harsh, but knowing myself I can be brutally honest. =P So bear with me.

This is what I have gathered from the complaints:
People miss a super difficult quest/bragging rights
People want Bagon to be worth more

This quest is not the old DD. It was never meant to be.
Is not meant to be super difficult or focused on Bagon. Bagon was even increased in difficulty so old players weren't slapped in the face too hard.

This quest is meant for players with 8 badges to put in a decent (but not too much) amount of effort to access a training area. It is small reward for beating johto and trying that extra little bit harder; a reward for sticking with the game thus far. Bagon could have been removed, yes, but what of the few players that were straggling behind? The ones that only finished DD a month ago? Two weeks ago? One week ago?

There was literally NO way to change DD and have everyone be happy, we knew this going in. Could we have appeased everyone by just adding another random area? Maybe. But that'd be pointless and frivolous. This is a beta game, and it is bound to change (hopefully toward progression.) Nothing good can come from duct taping problems, and it'd be a tacked on extension. In other words, definitely not efficient, clean, or professional.

But, instead of going "screw everyone" and just changing the thing, there was a "Pros and Cons" approach to it. "What will the backlash be? Is this change worth what will happen? How can we make this more fair?" This wasn't thrown in randomly and the game's balance is a major concern at all times. We know we will sometimes get yelled at for changes.

(Now, this is where my "I may be harsh" disclaimer kicks in.)

I am always open to concerns by players, but none of the ones that have been brought really stick out to me. The only concerns brought up seem to be centered around this thought that DD should be left untouched. Some are debating Bagon's value needs to be higher. I'm also getting the feeling that some are feeling: "I already did it so everyone else should have to do it too." That emotion stems from the fact that you/ other people were forced into an unfair quest that was duct taped to the game in the first place. Was a lot of effort put into that quest? Of course! Did some enjoy the immense challenge the quest presented? Yes, yes, and yes! =)
But instead of being written and being an active story part in the imaginary novel of PWO, it was just a sentence added onto the end.

"And then the player lived happily ever after. The end. *Cue Afterword.*

...
...

And then Player, out of hesitant horror, killed a dratini after grinding for hours and hours. The valiant hero then did some other stuff, and after painstaking days or months of work, made it into dragons den. Player then walked around just to maybe find a Bagon."

There is a place for a difficult quest that separates the boys from men, but DD simply makes more sense as a progression point. Players will be encouraged to continue instead of coming to a (literal) grinding halt. Old players will still have a reason to visit the area endgame. Waiting johto players will have something to do while saving up for kanto.

Finally, -and if you're against this new quest, you are not going to like what I am going to say next either- by being a player in this game, you take an inherent risk that things will change. Sometimes this is in your personal favor, and other times not.
And, as staff, we take an inherent risk that players will not like what we do or say.

Staff try to make sure that things are not easily exploitable and overly offending to existing players, but sometimes it simply is not possible. This is one of those times. How many times do I have to relay the story of how I bought an UC xatu/houndour/murkrow/insert other weird UC here, and it became common a month later? And that time that I bought a $10,000,000 surfboard.

Change is the nature of this game, and we try to do it for the better. Sometimes people's pockets or opinions will not come out unscathed, but changes are done with the intentions of moving the game forward.

So I will again say this again:

Pros:
-Sensible Location progression. Players can reach DD after johto, as is in the games.
-Sensible Level progression. Players can train on level 40s instead of level 20s for their kanto experience. They can use the time to get enough money for a surfboard. (Huge plus.)
-Reward. Players are encouraged to put a little extra effort into PWO and are rewarded with a pretty awesome area.
-Story makes sense (teeny plus)/quest not horribly broken from what we can tell(teeny plus)
-Quest allows room for expansion

Cons:
-Bagon's value may/may not go down (Bagon owners had an advantage to sell during DD's close)
-Super difficult quest is out of the game
Thus, Players that completed the older quest may feel a bit cheated (due to above reasons)

*Most people are debating the current DD spawns. If anything, I am for the spawns becoming less valuable. The opposite seems more invested in helping player's pockets or interests. In which case, the excitement quickly fades and such updates become expected. This leads to crowded areas filled with pokemon that either do not belong or do not make sense.

I will not personally be moved in my opinion of the new DD unless somebody else either A: shows how the cons are so bad that the Pros don't count in comparison or B: Brings up some other concern that involves the overall balance of the game. As for those that are now offended, sorry. But I speak what I think is true (although it is my own !!!!personal!!!! thought).

 

[psychosamm]

I don't have a problem with it being available to those with 8 badges, i think that's a good idea. What annoyed me was mad's wording of the original post, that somehow those who had access before were somehow 'exclusive' and that now since they're making it more difficult to find Bagon, we had some sort of exclusive experience to find Bagon, as if he wasn't difficult to find already, calling it "compensation". That in no way is compensation, that's more of a "Hey look on the bright side, if you found a Bagon before, good for you! Now you're gonna be screwed!" I could honestly care less about Bagon's value, because as soon as you find one with 25+ attack and speed the price skyrockets like you've never seen. I almost wish we knew ahead of time that Bagon was going to be harder to find, out of all the things i thought might happen with a new DD Quest, making Bagon harder to find was the last thing i thought would happen. If being able to find Bagon at a lower rarity was out reward, then it would've been nice to know ahead of time so we could make the most of it while we could. I wasted at least 250k on train rides alone on completing the DD Quest, so it would've been nice to try and make that up before my chances to find the only thing of value in the den was shot. If you're trying to make him more exclusive it's kind of too late for that, there's plenty of them on the market already, you're really only hurting those who are going to go in for the first time and have little money. (Since you label grinding there a good way to make cash for a surfboard) if what they really want is a Bagon.
It seems like your basic answer to the complaints is simply "Deal with it."

tldr; i agree with most changes besides making Bagon harder to find, and made essentially no benefit to those who completed the quest already.

 

[CoolKnightST]

Bagon change was needed for the following reasons:

• It's an 3th generation and supposed not be avaible in Kanto and Johto.
• His end-evo is an Pseudo-Legendary Pokémon. Together with Dragonite, Tyranitar, Salamence, Metagross, Garchomp and Hydreigon. Not strange that 2 of the strongest pokémon can be found on 1 location.
• His end-evo Salamence is one of the top pokémons in PvP.

Yes DD is an good alternative habitat for Bagon but in fact you need to be happy you could find him there. I really like the struture in DD for now. Bagon fit the habitat but still should be more rare than other horrible rares because the habitat is not natural. This would be an nice add when the hoenn map get add the system could be reversed by adding Dratini as extreem horrible rare and Bagon and Shelgon as horrible rare just like was done in DD.

So in theory Bagon is XR (Extreem Rare) in kanto. And you known why, I don't see any reason behind this why continue doing this discussion.

 

[CheckeredZebra]

I don't have a problem with it being available to those with 8 badges, i think that's a good idea. What annoyed me was mad's wording of the original post, that somehow those who had access before were somehow 'exclusive' and that now since they're making it more difficult to find Bagon, we had some sort of exclusive experience to find Bagon, as if he wasn't difficult to find already, calling it "compensation". That in no way is compensation, that's more of a "Hey look on the bright side, if you found a Bagon before, good for you! Now you're gonna be screwed!" I could honestly care less about Bagon's value, because as soon as you find one with 25+ attack and speed the price skyrockets like you've never seen. I almost wish we knew ahead of time that Bagon was going to be harder to find, out of all the things i thought might happen with a new DD Quest, making Bagon harder to find was the last thing i thought would happen. If being able to find Bagon at a lower rarity was our reward, then it would've been nice to know ahead of time so we could make the most of it while we could. I wasted at least 250k on train rides alone on completing the DD Quest, so it would've been nice to try and make that up before my chances to find the only thing of value in the den was shot. If you're trying to make him more exclusive it's kind of too late for that, there's plenty of them on the market already, you're really only hurting those who are going to go in for the first time and have little money. (Since you label grinding there a good way to make cash for a surfboard) if what they really want is a Bagon.
It seems like your basic answer to the complaints is simply "Deal with it."

tldr; i agree with most changes besides making Bagon harder to find, and made essentially no benefit to those who completed the quest already.

Before this post gets underway, thanks for reading my 3 page long (literally!) essay above. I appreciate our discussion and am trying to learn from it, even if I disagree with several points. I am grateful for your input, so don't feel cornered into a huge debate lol. Most people would've flipped a table and only half read everything. With that said...

I only say "deal with it" to complaints that do not justify the damage that would be done by any currently-thought-of amendments. =P Even then, I try to be reasonable and polite with it.

Anyhow, I will keep in mind your suggestion of a heads up and apply it to any appropriate situation. Old DD questers were exclusive in that they managed to traverse through a horribly difficult and ~3/4s of the time~ broken quest. Would you rather we have ignored that fact and not made that distinction?

Would you rather the rate have stayed the same? The worry would be that such a move would give older players even less of an advantage over newer players. (That "advantage" being the ability to sell Bagon while the area was more exclusive only. Wouldn't that have sucked? D: )
Instead people are suggesting we add more pokemon to the area, but how is that fair to older players? Newer players would get more chances for doing less. And a balanced value equal to that of DD would have to be applied for CC, and CC isn't as sacred/difficult of a quest as DD. Goodie spam isn't sensible design. >_<

While your suggestion of giving a heads up might have seemed better PR, the aftermath could've been negative or positive. Furthermore, it cannot be changed now at this time. =P
But honestly, everyone's pockets come second. Just ask the richer players during that tax. Anyone that trained in/hunted in DD took advantage of their situation and generally cherished the location and opportunities. They spent their time to use what they invested in and many came out with something (even if it was a few more level 99s or shinies). The people worst off are those that didn't spend time in it after beating the quest or those that beat the quest like...a week ago. Of whom we tried to avoid smacking in the gut by not completely removing Bagon. In the end, there is only one player archetype that is unfairly hurt by this: The new player who tried to finish the old DD asap but didn't quite make it in time before the change.

Furthermore, an announcement would spur a rushing change in Bagon's price; people would try to sell their Bagons to capitalize on the update, and it could have lead to various other events people would either be happy/unhappy about. I'm fairly certain people would STILL be unhappy with Bagon's rate change.
I repeat my previous stance: there was no way to make everyone completely satisfied with this, so somebody will likely have to "deal with it" for one reason or another. And it's not that staff don't care that people are upset, it's just there comes a point where everything that can be done has been done. This, I feel, is one of those times.

Spoiler: Sidenote

People with less money who wander in looking for bagon should lose absolutely nothing but time doing the new DD. They shouldn't come out hurt at all.
The pre-update had them doing nothing but grinding on level 20s and praying they'd find something good. Now they're grinding on level 40s that drop more money per kill while praying they find something good. (Which could be slowking, dratini, a shiny common, or the muchly discussed bagon. Pretty good outlook they'll find something.) Worse comes to worse, they exit with level 70s and 50k they ground up while spending time there. =)

And sorry if I completely missed your point. I get the feeling that may have happened.

 

[mad30]

Because of this change we have decided as compensation for those who have already completed the quest, they enjoyed a period of a lower encounter rate of bagon. Yes bagons encounter rate has decreased and is now more difficult to encounter. We have also added slowking as a normal HR encounter in return.

I don't understand this part, as compensation to those who had to kill a dratini, you rewarded them by making Bagon harder to find and added Slowking? How in any way is that a reward? It seems like more of a punishment to me, you never hear anyone say "Man, I really wish i had a Slowking!!!" I'm not sure if you mis-worded this or if that statement was some kind of joke.

edit: Or were you saying that since those who did the harder version of the quest were able to encounter Bagon more easily, that in itself was the "Reward" If so that's one horrible reward.

Yes the wording is a bit wonky, and for that I apologize. It's a situation where those who did the older quests still had an advantage over those who delayed/just now able to do the quest. Point being, those who did the old quest did not do it for naught.

Also, slowking was requested to be added by a player.

 

[psychosamm]

Before this post gets underway, thanks for reading my 3 page long (literally!) essay above. I appreciate our discussion and am trying to learn from it, even if I disagree with several points. I am grateful for your input, so don't feel cornered into a huge debate lol. Most people would've flipped a table and only half read everything. With that said...

I only say "deal with it" to complaints that do not justify the damage that would be done by any currently-thought-of amendments. =P Even then, I try to be reasonable and polite with it.

Anyhow, I will keep in mind your suggestion of a heads up and apply it to any appropriate situation. Old DD questers were exclusive in that they managed to traverse through a horribly difficult and ~3/4s of the time~ broken quest. Would you rather we have ignored that fact and not made that distinction?

Would you rather the rate have stayed the same? The worry would be that such a move would give older players even less of an advantage over newer players. (That "advantage" being the ability to sell Bagon while the area was more exclusive only. Wouldn't that have sucked? D: )
Instead people are suggesting we add more pokemon to the area, but how is that fair to older players? Newer players would get more chances for doing less. And a balanced value equal to that of DD would have to be applied for CC, and CC isn't as sacred/difficult of a quest as DD. Goodie spam isn't sensible design. >_<

While your suggestion of giving a heads up might have seemed better PR, the aftermath could've been negative or positive. Furthermore, it cannot be changed now at this time. =P
But honestly, everyone's pockets come second. Just ask the richer players during that tax. Anyone that trained in/hunted in DD took advantage of their situation and generally cherished the location and opportunities. They spent their time to use what they invested in and many came out with something (even if it was a few more level 99s or shinies).The people worst off are those that didn't spend time in it after beating the quest or those that beat the quest like...a week ago. Of whom we tried to avoid smacking in the gut by not completely removing Bagon. In the end, it was their choice to not fully realize their investment. >__<

Furthermore, an announcement would spur a rushing change in Bagon's price; people would try to sell their Bagons to capitalize on the update, and it could have lead to various other events people would either be happy/unhappy about. I'm fairly certain people would STILL be unhappy with Bagon's rate change.
I repeat my previous stance: there was no way to make everyone completely satisfied with this, so somebody will likely have to "deal with it" for one reason or another. And it's not that staff don't care that people are upset, it's just there comes a point where everything that can be done has been done. This, I feel, is one of those times.

Spoiler: Sidenote

People with less money who wander in looking for bagon should lose absolutely nothing but time doing the new DD. They shouldn't come out hurt at all.
The pre-update had them doing nothing but grinding on level 20s and praying they'd find something good. Now they're grinding on level 40s that drop more money per kill while praying they find something good. (Which could be slowking, dratini, a shiny common, or the muchly discussed bagon. Pretty good outlook they'll find something.) Worse comes to worse, they exit with level 70s and 50k they ground up while spending time there. =)

And sorry if I completely missed your point. I get the feeling that may have happened.

I don't really have a problem with the quest being changed to be made easier, sure it's kind of a downer that I had to kill a dratini but the new players don't have to, but that's just something that needed to happen in order to better the quest. I don't mind that the new quest is easier, i don't mind most of the changes, in fact i think a lot of them are positive. However i think making Bagon harder to find is just a slap in the face. It seems very unnecessary to me. You say that it was done to somehow make those who completed the harder version of the DD quest happy, because they were able to find him easier. I am one of those people and I'm not happy with the change in the slightest. This is what it looks like to me:
1) If Bagon was the same rarity vet DDers would feel cheated, and the market would be flooded with Bagons.
2) If Bagon was made harder to find vet DDers would have done a hard quest and now will have a hard time finding Bagon, but at least they were able to find him easier before right? Now Bagon's value may go up! Yay...

What happened to the "We don't care about the value of pokemon, the players always have, and always will set the prices and values of pokemon."
If that's the case then Bagon should simply stay the same rarity, not made more difficult. Its up to the players to set the value of Bagon, not the staff. Unless the true intention here was to add an UC into the game, at which point i would argue he could be added elsewhere. I think Mt Silver needs some sort of Aquatic area (because mt silver is VERY anti electric poke friendly, i couldn't one hit pokemon with my jolteon until he was almost level 80), he could be added there.

All in all this is just like, my opinion maaan.

 

[HitmonFonty]

Bagon should not be easier to get than any of the other HRs in my opinion. It's commonly known that dratini is the hardest grind of any pokemon in the game, going beyond any other- and I can vouch for that having hunted and caught nearly all of them. Why would Bagon, a third generation pokemon at least as strong as dratini, be any easier to catch? Dragons are supposed to be super rare and should be super rare due to their power and semi-legendary status. Personally I hope that Bagon is removed long before Hoenn comes out so that it becomes a Hoenn only pokemon when we have that region to roam in.

 

[CheckeredZebra]

My issue with keeping the rate the same is that new DDers would get the same reward as vet DDers with much less effort. "We will not bother to recognize your sacrificed dratini!1" is what comes off from that. I can't say I can see how that is a better alternative. D: If that is unclear, I have an example I could use. =)


Not being a mean person, I just am either missing something or do not agree with your point. We may have to agree to disagree.

 

[psychosamm]

My issue with keeping the rate the same is that new DDers would get the same reward as vet DDers with much less effort. "We will not bother to recognize your sacrificed dratini!1" is what comes off from that. I can't say I can see how that is a better alternative. D: If that is unclear, I have an example I could use. =)


Not being a mean person, I just am either missing something or do not agree with your point. We may have to agree to disagree.

I suppose so. I dunno i just don't really see how making him harder to find is really much of a plus for anyone. Vets may feel better new people can't find him as easy, but at the same time they are also burdened by the same dilemma. I just don't really like it, but i suppose everyone will just have to accept it.

 

[bigdidy]

Hmm Cool update Slowking ahhh and just here to say hi

 

[BlameAoD]

Also I am mad that the ppl who did the quest b4 the removal of waterlab that stay in the water at DD did not get a "reward" at all, so you lowered the encounter rate of Bagon for a while... That's nice, I spend all my time in the water so me and anyone else who strictly stays in the water got a big slap in the face. We did work to get in the Den 2 but we get nothing cuz we'd rather train and hunt in the waters... Nice... I <3 this game and all it's staff and I greatly appreciate every thing they do to help, but I'm highly disappointed about this. Especially when I had done this quest it was even harder than b4 cuz I had to "help 3 noobs" when reg was hardly ever even open so there were few "noobs" in the area...

*Edit to say I'd still be a WHOLE lot happier about this mess if they at least put something new in the water 2... All I'm saying is you guys only "compensated" land dwellers in DD and then slapped us sea dwellers again by giving the land a new poke and nothing for the water again... I can't help but feel cheated :'(

 

[WizZzarD]

Thanks for keeping plans in secret, I killed dratini just the day before DD quest has been removed.

Because of this change we have decided as compensation for those who have already completed the quest, they enjoyed a period of a lower encounter rate of bagon. Yes bagons encounter rate has decreased and is now more difficult to encounter. We have also added slowking as a normal HR encounter in return.

Doesn't make any sense, lol.

 

[Merse]

The only thing that really - I mean REALLY-REALLY-REALLY - bothers me that I gave away my spheals as a gift a few days before this change was introduced. Now they are uncatchable, so I gave away a few million Pokedollars for free.
Some warning or something really would have been nice...

 

[CoolKnightST]

The only thing that really - I mean REALLY-REALLY-REALLY - bothers me that I gave away my spheals as a gift a few days before this change was introduced. Now they are uncatchable, so I gave away a few million Pokedollars for free.
Some warning or something really would have been nice...

Who cares, spheal is just an mid class pokémon out there.

 

[Merse]

And in 2 months it will worth more than any HR, because it's UC

 

[king1234]

And in 2 months it will worth more than any HR, because it's UC

spheal is 6 tokens in the token store, and most 6 token pokes doesn't get much money. like tailow, illumise, seviper etc. and plus spheal isn't really popular or good much.

 

[Friko]

I have finished the new quest after 2 hours

LOL! Now this is ridiculous... The most valuable area in PWO can be accessed with a 2 hours quest. Just.... lol... I think I'll sell my Bagons before their price drops to 100k.

Sorry staff, I'm usually backing your ideas and steps to enhance the game, but this was an horrible mistake IMO.

Something i may think is an answer to Trapinch or Swablu not being in the Den = Trapinch lives in SANDY Areas, not a wet cave like D.Den. Swablu is a FLYING pokemon (yes it turns into a dragon, but does it really make sense something that is so small and needs to fly has its wings wet?) (I'm aware of Zubat and Crobat in there, but they don't have cotton wings do they?)

Swablu is primarily flying Pokemon, and Altaria only gains dragon features when it evolves, but it doesn't become a dragon...

erm...altaria is a dragon/flying type...(it was bothering me) anyway, I see this and i think *ok.....now what*, the staff has introduced a new pokemon to the pokedex, which is cool, further decreased the encounter rate on Bagon, Made Larvitar cactheable as well, all in all, this has been the most productive month I've seen in a long time. Although, I do agree with other people on this. People within the community of PWO who are among the true elite searched and wasted hours on end of their lives to obtain the "key" to get into DD, I myself was lucky enough to encounter a dratini in 1 minute, but others still haven't finished the "requirement" regarding the initial event. As such, I understand that its very saddening to think that what was done in 3 months, takes another person 2 hours.

Secondly, To my understanding, the new event can take place at any point in time in which the player has access to Blackthorne city, seeing that DD is there, as such, this indicates that a person must still obtain all 16 badges to have full access into DD. Even though the quest can be started previous to that *apparently*.

Furthermore, the other areas are all extremely easy *albeit time consuming* to access. These include Mt. Silver and Cerulean Cave, Who's outputs in EXP are among the highest Wild pokemon EXP in game. While of course, we as PWO players have had acess to DD we have spent long enough there in hopes of finding specific Dragon types. The EXP to Catch rate ratio (in otherwords, the amount of EXP we gave up by not going to CC) is large in difference, The least that could happen is a specific Event WITHIN Dragons Den that leads to the second floor, and therefore leads to higher level pokemon for EXP output or NPC's and the like.
Slowking does not make up for the original event being slashed.

 

[Saric]

I have finished the new quest after 2 hours

LOL! Now this is ridiculous... The most valuable area in PWO can be accessed with a 2 hours quest. Just.... lol... I think I'll sell my Bagons before their price drops to 100k.

Sorry staff, I'm usually backing your ideas and steps to enhance the game, but this was an horrible mistake IMO.

Something i may think is an answer to Trapinch or Swablu not being in the Den = Trapinch lives in SANDY Areas, not a wet cave like D.Den. Swablu is a FLYING pokemon (yes it turns into a dragon, but does it really make sense something that is so small and needs to fly has its wings wet?) (I'm aware of Zubat and Crobat in there, but they don't have cotton wings do they?)

Swablu is primarily flying Pokemon, and Altaria only gains dragon features when it evolves, but it doesn't become a dragon...

erm...altaria is a dragon/flying type...(it was bothering me) anyway, I see this and i think *ok.....now what*, the staff has introduced a new pokemon to the pokedex, which is cool, further decreased the encounter rate on Bagon, Made Larvitar cactheable as well, all in all, this has been the most productive month I've seen in a long time. Although, I do agree with other people on this. People within the community of PWO who are among the true elite searched and wasted hours on end of their lives to obtain the "key" to get into DD, I myself was lucky enough to encounter a dratini in 1 minute, but others still haven't finished the "requirement" regarding the initial event. As such, I understand that its very saddening to think that what was done in 3 months, takes another person 2 hours.

Secondly, To my understanding, the new event can take place at any point in time in which the player has access to Blackthorne city, seeing that DD is there, as such, this indicates that a person must still obtain all 16 badges to have full access into DD. Even though the quest can be started previous to that *apparently*.

Furthermore, the other areas are all extremely easy *albeit time consuming* to access. These include Mt. Silver and Cerulean Cave, Who's outputs in EXP are among the highest Wild pokemon EXP in game. While of course, we as PWO players have had acess to DD we have spent long enough there in hopes of finding specific Dragon types. The EXP to Catch rate ratio (in otherwords, the amount of EXP we gave up by not going to CC) is large in difference, The least that could happen is a specific Event WITHIN Dragons Den that leads to the second floor, and therefore leads to higher level pokemon for EXP output or NPC's and the like.
Slowking does not make up for the original event being slashed.

The bolded part is not true. Since one can start in johto, it is no longer required for one to have 16 badges. Plus, none of the quest is in kanto, as stated/implied on mad's original post.

 

[CheckeredZebra]

Think you're missing half of the intention of this update. CC will be made accessible in a similar manner eventually, making CC/DD twin areas/quests. It's for people who just beat the 8th gym.

As for your other points,well...they've been addressed elsewhere in pages past. Debate includes old vs. new quest, the options that were considered, and what it means to be a beta tester for this game. Considering how much time I've spent replying in this topic (hours), I don't think I will pursue any further debate, though. =P Everything I wanted to say has been said.

 

[king1234]

Plus this is a beta game, so changes should happen no matter if there are bad or good (or even if some people got an feeling of foul play). we should adapt to them. Guess u can't please everyone