Some would call it a hammer

[Krowe]

Ban them I say! Lift thy ban hammer and pound justice into them!

But. It's common sense. If you do the crime, you'll pay the time. Why would you want to become more lenient? A crime is a crime, an offence is an offence. Why appeal to change it now?

Speeding is a crime, running a red light, illegal parking, ect. Should everyone that do those be sent to jail?

Late to the party, sure, but had to chime in.

It's important to understand why something is a crime, not just what the punishment is.

Speed is often limited in areas based off of congestion, safety, and terrain. For example, while a road might have a speed limit of 45 mph, the corners might be limited to 15 mph for safety. If you're ticketed or arrested for breaking those limits, then it's because you're putting others at risk. Speeding can be considered a form of reckless endangerment, or neglect. Running a red light can be categorized as much the same.

Parking is usually restricted because it interferes with public works or public safety. For example, it is illegal in my state to park on the street overnight when there is two or more inches of snowfall. This is because the plows and salt trucks need to work on the streets overnight, as it's the only time to do it before people leave for work. Fire zones should be obvious, and so on.

In the case of Pokemon World Online, it's still important to understand why certain things are against the rules.

It's easy to sit down and say, "yes, more punishments, less punishments, rabble rabble," but without examining the consequences of each action being considered, those words are just hot air blown into the wind.

Botting damages the game by granting certain players an unfair or undue advantage over others. It's not just that, either -- it's an unfair advantage obtained through means not intended by the game's developers. It's a form of advanced exploitation, as it abuses the assumption that a live player will be investing time into playing. This means that any player that uses a botting program to, say, grind fishing experience for 15 hours is going to have a direct advantage over any player that is unable to sit there and fish for 15 hours (re: that's everyone not botting). Botting is basically using Hermione's time turner necklace to allow you to be in two places at once. Rather than choose between going to work or fishing, it allows you to do both. That's unhealthy for both the player and the game.

It's possible to break down each other type of offense, but I'm not going to here. I just find it pointless to ask players for an opinion without explaining the consequences of the action they're opining, or explaining why it originally came to be illegal here.

 

[Krowe]

Where is the list of bans a person can receive? The repercussions?

I assume that it's tucked away in the staff's resources.

If there is protocol, and all the staff must follow same exact protocol (depending on their department, powers and position as staff), shouldn't we know what this protocol is?

No, we shouldn't know what it is. As soon as players know what account action protocols are, they'll blatantly abuse them.

Knowing what the account action protocols are is a safety net, but not in the way you're expecting.For example, if we find out that anyone caught scamming was subject to just a single day suspension for the first offense, then there'd be a rise in single-time offenders as they'd know that they'd get off the first time.

For instance, it's been made very clear that without Screen Shots, Pokemon ids, or video, a person cannot make a claim of wrong doing against another person. The staff cannot look into it if there is no proof of any actions. Visual or otherwise. Hearsay and 'he said she said' is not allowed here.

This is already widely abused, and again it's not in the way you'd expect. Just look at the Community Watch. It's filled with people, with no proof, trying to get Pokemon off of banned accounts. I'm sure that's why the 'lack of proof' rule exists: it's better for the game and its economy to keep potentially modified Pokemon out of the game and risk hurting a player, than it is to reward a player for taking a risk by placing potentially modified Pokemon back into the mix.

 

[Shiningamisgirl]

Lol, true, true, and valid points. I honestly hate that for everything that exists, the answer will always be 'bots will exploit it'. There has to be some way to get around that. Especially if they'll exploit it anyways.

Though if the bots/hackers/etc are the enemy, then it makes sense not to let them know how the system works..

On the one hand I like the idea of some things being a case by case type of deal. Depending on the issue, each thing is looked over uniquely, separately. On the other hand, somethings need to be universally handled in the same way.

Of course, no matter whats done, there will always be a way around it..which will lead to rebanning..which will lead to etc, etc. It's the worse endless cycle ever!

I suppose what I was hoping for, was a better informed community. Most of the people who get scammed, do so because they don't understand the system/or because said scammer hasn't had enough proof provided against him to get caught. One cant just take anyone's word for it if one does get scammed, as it'd then become a back and forth of....well..the usual.

Though that's not the staffs issue, so much as it is the communities, for not taking advantage of the info at hand, and Screen shots! The dangers in trusting other players..tsk.

 

[Krowe]

PWO is the only game I've played where if you get ripped off in a trade, a team of moderators will spend hours banning the person into the ground and returning your stuff.

In every other game, the moderators recognize that in the majority of cases, the one filing the report is responsible for their own loss due to neglect or carelessness. As such they usually ban the offender and leave it there.

PWO's moderators are creating a culture of dependency and of easy prey by being too eager to intercede in player disputes.

 

[Shiningamisgirl]

That they are Krowe, the staff here are amazing and do an amazing job, I agree!

There are however many instances where the users lack of proof causes the exact same issue that would happen in other games. Scams are an easier area to work with, black n white even. A scammer or thief, should instantly be banned. Their account or Ip, whichever. The problem is that when the person who got scammed, lacks the needed proof, they cannot get their pokemon returned to them.

Is it their own fault for getting scammed? Sure, and even their own fault for not heeding the warnings and taking SS to begin with.

What about when its a person you trust though? Or someone from your guild, or a good friend? When they are the scammers, and you being friends, do not feel the need to SS the trade. It really does mean you shouldnt trust anyone on the site, because yo never really know, for sure. Or should at least always be proactive in protecting yourself and your investment in the game, by forever keeping records of what you do.

Though..the staff do have the power to look over every trade done in game.

I feel that the mods create a culture of fairness. It's not their fault that people don't seem to know how to read first...It's also not the peoples fault that there seem to be so many in this game who don't fear the consequences, or fear the rules, or fear any repercussion at all, and feel they can get away with whatever they want.

I say, create the fear, let them know what will happen to them. Then use a case by case basis behind closed doors. But at least have a basic guideline up.

Scam = Ban (Ip, account, etc!) Things like that. IN big red letters even. Most scammers, and botters, and etc, rely on the fact that they feel the populace is too uniformed and to derpy to notice or protect themselves. They feel safe enough to get away with it.

Would they try regardless? Sure, but chances are less people would try if they knew how hard the hammer could fall. At least with scamming. All of these issues are similar in that they are cheating/ruining the game, yet unique in the way they are executed, and the type of harm they cause.

 

[Saurus]

Never say things like "Tie a noose around your neck and jump off a cliff" because however sarcastically suggested, you'll get a ban. While blasphemy roams free and spreads the message with bible verses. Hoorayyy. -Face palm-.

 

[pokearcanine]

Punishiments is ok for botters and scammers,but somethings that was always in my mind is: why someone who does someone like account sharing should be punished like a scammer or botter?
Things like account sharing and double clienting should work different in my opinion,most of people who are banned for this didnt even know they were breaking a rule.i would suggest dividing "crimes" in 2 categories:
One shot Ban : Scams and Bots
Warning,if done again Ban : account sharing,double clientening
i can only remember of those 4 rules that are ban issues,but i guess any bannable way can be fit on this i said.

 

[KaiReborn]

Never say things like "Tie a noose around your neck and jump off a cliff" because however sarcastically suggested, you'll get a ban. While blasphemy roams free and spreads the message with bible verses. Hoorayyy. -Face palm-.

Nobody cares about you being butthurt on the fact you were punished for that, grow up.

 

[Saurus]

Kaiser6tn (Kings messenger): For nobody cares what thou sayest! Hear ye' Hear ye! Thou art butthurteth mi' lord.
Saurus (mi' Lord): Be gone peasant!

 

[CheckeredZebra]

Never say things like "Tie a noose around your neck and jump off a cliff" because however sarcastically suggested, you'll get a ban. While blasphemy roams free and spreads the message with bible verses. Hoorayyy. -Face palm-.

Sorry to go off topic. Normally I wouldn't jump into these kind of things, but when I was staff, there was a rule-set rewrite project and I made sure responses like yours were considered. Why? Because insulting makes bad situations worse; it's something several people have learned the hard way (like you just did). It was supposed to be there to make people think before they spout off something hateful. I'm sure you're a great guy, but that doesn't change the fact that Kaiser is correct.

13. Do not insult or provoke staff or other players, including through Private Messages. This includes calling people names or making rude comments. If you're in an argument, you should keep it civil even if the other person is not.

Please, next time just report them instead of fueling the flames.

 

[Saurus]

Man, you guys are too funny. Lol.

 

[Shiningamisgirl]

Warning warning! The Hammer train has been derailed, I repeat it has gone off tracks! I say again the topic has gone awry! Abort, ctrl+alt+del, reboot!!

Alright..so along with basic game rules, we also need some 'Rules of Conduct'. Maybe rules of conduct should be listed in a separate place from the game rules, and the TOS.

Also, I had some wonderful discussions with ppls. Apparently what we lack is Progressive Punishments. I say we find a way to implement those, and while listing the worst case scenario is pointless..I realize this now..as everyone already knows the worse case scenario possible.

Is there a way to A. Put a spy into the communities that do these things, including our own? (or at least have someone keep an eye on current hacker trends, forums, botting and speed hacking programs, and money hack update? Etc.)

I'm not sure what percent of the system is handled by the currently input system defenses, and what percent is handled by humans. Naturally scams need to be handled by humans, as they are not hacks or bots.

Also @poke - Most people who sell/share their accounts, wouldn't get caught at alllll..if they didn't share/sell them to people who then use illegal programs, or use their character to hack/bot. If I give away an account of mine, and the person I give it to keeps their mouth shut/doesn't do anything illegal with it. No one will ever be the wiser. Heck, if I sold it off, and they kept quiet and good, no one would ever know.

Really the only people it hurts..are those who didn't know(whoever they gave/sold it to) and the derps who had the bright idea to brag about how they got their account from their friend, and used it to do xxxxxx. I am totally fine with the staff doing whatever they want to people who dont have common sense, or enough sense to check the rules of the game their playing. Go for it. Encourage ppl to use their brains, and read!

Now I personally don't like the idea of a person selling their account, but only if that account did/used illegal programs, hacks, or stole from others. Otherwise, what ppl do with their own money is none of my concern. I don't care. Until it hurts the game or others. Money/Speed hacks primarily.

Again the person who suffers at the end of it all, is the person who was derp enough to buy/take said account, without checking things out. I dont feel bad if they get banned, because they should have checked first, and if they get to start over (lets face it the old player wasn't gonna return on that account) it'll be as it should have been anyways. Starting clean with a new account.

Really bots are just like having someone take over and play for you, annoying? Yeah! Do I like it? No. But, I like hackers and scammers far far farrr less. It's them I want to put in defenses against. I just don't know how..I know they exist everywhere, but they seem to be a terrible issue for this community due to two facts.
1. The very nature of the game encourages it. (All MMO and grind games do.)
2. The community is so small that when it happens, it hurts. (This isn't WOW.)

 

[Chocobo7]

Account selling is something I doubt will change as you are selling something that technically does not belong to you and is against the rules in pretty much every MMO ever

 

[Saurus]

Why do some players have alternate accounts? What's the purpose.

 

[HitmonFonty]

Why do some players have alternate accounts? What's the purpose.

I have many, I have played the game through on them all and that's why I created them- to play the game again from the start.

 

[Julio~]

Why do some players have alternate accounts? What's the purpose.

I have many, I have played the game through on them all and that's why I created them- to play the game again from the start.

Some also like to keep alternative accounts to store pokemoney and pokemons; and perhaps, use them on forums, get better pvp stats, store collections and use the main one for battles only... Well, they have too many utilities.

 

[Shiningamisgirl]

Account selling is something I doubt will change as you are selling something that technically does not belong to you and is against the rules in pretty much every MMO ever

Lol! I'm in nooo way saying it should be legal. It's stupid, but it's not something I particularly care about as it doesn't effect me. I personally don't see the rational behind selling one at all, who would waste their money on it! Of course some ppl do have money to burn, and I've seen people try it often enough. Lord kittens know there are forums and websites dedicated to that very sort of thing. I'll never get the 'reward' factor in it, as the risk seems much higher for the person getting caught.

Don't make it legal, but it shouldn't be a major topic or the main focus even. Do what you please with it? I'm happy for the bans? -shrugs- They get what they get and shouldn't throw fits because they didn't think to check first? I wouldn't change what's being done, and I've seen that PWO thanks to some defense updates, has gotten better at keeping the hackers out.
.................

Personally, if I ever have multiple accounts, it would be for storage/boredom play through purposes. Some people have used them for guild management, etc. Every player has their reasons. I don't get the amount sometimes, but I imagine staff would notice if a player created 30 or 40 + accounts, and they would keep an eye on such things.

Guilds would be amazing for storage..but..client issues..and guild banks are way weird.

 

[BRGodEastwood]

Account selling is something I doubt will change as you are selling something that technically does not belong to you and is against the rules in pretty much every MMO ever

Lol! I'm in nooo way saying it should be legal. It's stupid, but it's not something I particularly care about as it doesn't effect me. I personally don't see the rational behind selling one at all, who would waste their money on it! Of course some ppl do have money to burn, and I've seen people try it often enough. Lord kittens know there are forums and websites dedicated to that very sort of thing. I'll never get the 'reward' factor in it, as the risk seems much higher for the person getting caught.

Don't make it legal, but it shouldn't be a major topic or the main focus even. Do what you please with it? I'm happy for the bans? -shrugs- They get what they get and shouldn't throw fits because they didn't think to check first? I wouldn't change what's being done, and I've seen that PWO thanks to some defense updates, has gotten better at keeping the hackers out.
.................

Personally, if I ever have multiple accounts, it would be for storage/boredom play through purposes. Some people have used them for guild management, etc. Every player has their reasons. I don't get the amount sometimes, but I imagine staff would notice if a player created 30 or 40 + accounts, and they would keep an eye on such things.

Guilds would be amazing for storage..but..client issues..and guild banks are way weird.

You're writing walls of incoherent text, and speaking in circles. You look like you have a lot to say, but it doesn't really seem like you're saying anything. I just got a headache reading everything you wrote on this page, that has never happened to me, and I've been a staff member for 5 years dealing with Brazilian and Spanish and Russian ban appeals.

Keep it short and sweet, buddy. Short and sweet. And keep out all the filler. This is a discussion thread, not a socializing one. Don't need to make friends, just get your point across.

 

[CheckeredZebra]

So, thought I would put my own 2 cents here. =P

Personally, I find some account-name related bans a bit too harsh (or, rather, ineffective). =/ I would like it if players, who have no prior record of misbehavior, are polite during the appeal process, and/or have an "on-the-verge" account name could have just their pokemon be transferred to a new account/have a period of time where they can transfer their own pokemon before being banned.

Yes, they should have read the rules more closely, but sometimes what we think is normal/appropriate/child-friendly can differ per culture. Or, some people think you create an account name and then a profile name, leading to iffy handles that they weren't expecting to be in the public. xD This is compounded by the fact that recreating an account can be a bit...long winded or confusing. :c

I'd hate to completely turn down a person who was otherwise following the rules, or maybe even contributing, due to a different ideal of what PG is or an account misunderstanding. D: Now if the dude is named "****YoMama" and is cussing out staff it's an obvious breach; I am not bothered by those cases. But for people such as "LookMyAss," who barely avoided a perma ban, or people like "RubicGM" (which stood for "Grand Magnus" and as far as I know was not an impersonation attempt), or "IsmokePots" who was completely polite and willing to do whatever it took to be appropriate, it's harsh and just shoves away potentially cool people. [I think only 1/3 of those ended up perma banned forever, though, so perhaps the GMs feel the same way? Correct me if I'm wrong. D: ]

Also, this might have issues due to less legitimate players, but I would personally like it if we were allowed to trade between accounts without a paranoia/fear of being banned for multi-clienting. It would be an unwritten rule, of course, but there is no harm done when a player wants to train under-the-radar/transfer Pokemon due to lower PC space/change main accounts/do gyms or quests again/evolve Pokemon/etc...there's a whole myriad of legitimate reasons to want to trade between yourself. Yet we have to take a scam risk because we need another person to make the trade, and that is due to the fact that no stance has been taken on otherwise valid self-account trading. x_x;

 

[Dragon16]

Why do some players have alternate accounts? What's the purpose.

I have many, I have played the game through on them all and that's why I created them- to play the game again from the start.

Some also like to keep alternative accounts to store pokemoney and pokemons; and perhaps, use them on forums, get better pvp stats, store collections and use the main one for battles only... Well, they have too many utilities.

-the problem with trying to transfer pokemon to a different account is that it is hard to trust other players, which might lead a player to double client. I have seen many people get scammed by either trying to transfer pokes to their alt account or, for those newer players who think that trading a poke like kadabra will evolve it, trading pokes in order to evolve them. The main problem i find wrong with double clienting is the effect it will have on the server, especially now that the server capacity is lower. Double clienting is something that should be punishable, but not as severly as Perma-banning.
-As for the Perma banning of accounts with names that are not PG13 well i see the only way to fix it would be to have the New PLayerdex online, other than that there isnt really much that can be done about it.
-Selling an account should not be permitted as well, if the account had some illegal things in their history and sold it to a player and later were ip banned it would cause a headache. plus the registration process is relatively easy.
-anyone who uses third party programs or exploits a glitch should be permabanned. it ruins the PWO economy and takes the fun away from the Hunting Experience that many players are proud of.
those are my opinions o the matter