Some would call it a hammer

[mad30]

so much flawed logic (or lack of logic) in this topic

first off, some of these offense are viewed differently by the perpetrator than how you see it. So is the punishment.
lets start with 2 key definitions that I have an issue with in this topic: macroing vs botting

macroing: A single, user-defined command that is part of an application and executes a series of commands.
botting: a device or piece of software that can execute commands or perform routine tasks, as electronic searches, usually without user intervention (often used in combination):

definitions come from http://www.thefreedictionary.com

both are treated the same way currently in pwo, but they are very different, often times when people use a macro thats not a bot they are not trying to cheat or cause harm, they are simply trying to make the game more playable. Mouse macros are often used in this situations. This is not a software they downloaded to cheat, but simply a function of a tool they already have that they see as making the game easier to play. often this isnt even viewed as being a source of an unfair advantage (and shouldnt punishment for offenses that causes unfair advantage or disruptive to the game?) how is a macro either of these?

botting on the other hand does cause an unfair advantage (playing when you couldnt be playing otherwise) but is still not necessarily cheating in the same degree hacking is. it still goes back to the users intent of trying to make the game more bearable by having something automatically perform repetitive tasks. players see them as cheating trying to gain an unfair advantage, others see it as being able to coup with a boring repetitive game at times yet still progress!

now lets examine why the punishment does not work
2 scenarios:
player1 plays for 400 hours, starts to get bored but wants to progress, starts to bot, after 100 hours get caught and perma banned from the game, but can start a new game.
player2 plays for 400 hours, starts to get bored but wants to progress, starts to bot, after 100 hours get caught and is banned for 2 months from the game, but can start a new game.

player1 lost his account, his pokemon, and all that time. Accepts he has to start over and so does not looking back on his old account.
player2 loses 2 months of progress on his old account, and starts a new account realizing all the work on his new account will be for naught when he gets his old account back.

player1 starts to bot again knowing because he has already lost everything there is nothing else to lose but at the same time wants to catch back up to where he was.
player2 becomes depressed waiting out his time to regain his new account back, torturing him that because of his desire to continue progressing so much has no stop him from progressing completely.

player1 gets caught again and the process repeats.
player 2 gets his account back and re-examines if it was worth botting in the first place perhaps going back to botting perhaps not.

One player will most certainly bot again because... whats to deter him from not botting? Ip ban? How many players have gotten around an ip ban?
The other? At least his progress was stopped for 2 months, and is re-thinking if it was worth it.


When you do soemthing so permanent, its easier for a player to accept what happened and move on. when something is temporary its harder to move on and you still have your old account that you know you will get back but its just out of reach of being useable again

its easy to say that we must punishment they cheated, but does that make the game better? does it provide the results, what evidence supports that the current system works in pwo?

lets say you were to get perma banned, and say "Hey you can have a second chance by making a new account!" would you really see it as getting a second chance if your hundreds or thousands of hours removed just to start over? anyone of you who say yes, is full of crap and would fight to the end to get your account back after losing so much progress

both me and bis were gms, both of us disagreed with the majority of the posts in this topic and think temp bans are a better way to go, perma bans do not work there is a lack of deterrence which is needed to make the person stop repeating the offense. Justice is good and all, but if they dont learn and stop, whats the point of it other than your own self pleasure

 

[EcoWOLFrb]

If I saw everyone that botted getting a 2 month time out, I would think to myself "huh, why don't I bot if that's all there is to the punishment? Maybe I'll get away with it for 200 hours instead of most of the schmucks that get caught in the first 100... MAYBE I can get lucky and become the next Don_Quijote and become crazy rich from it if I'm smart enough! I mean... there's barely any risk right?"

Simply put, the child that gets put in a 10 minute time out will likely try to test you again and again until he figures out it's not worth it, increasing the frustration from the parent (in PWO's case the damage to the economy). But the child who gets whooped by the belt is less likely to misbehave while his bottom is still sore. Letting people keep botted pokemon after two months ... or ever is a revolting thought for me personally, and it leaves a foul taste in my mouth. At least after a certain amount of bans people will just get sick of trying to get around the system, unless they get pleasure from the thrill of ban evasion, in which case they'll be botting either way until PWO gives up completely. If you want to let them keep their account, wipe it squeaky clean.

 

[mad30]

parenting - harsher punishments
http://www.ahaparenting.com/parenting-t ... -parenting
http://www.empoweringparents.com/Why-Ha ... -Work.php#

jail sentencing length effect on recidivism (recidivism is repeating an offense)
http://drum.lib.umd.edu/bitstream/1903/ ... d-3109.pdf
findings show direct correlation between length of jail sentence and recidivism rate

those aren't perfect analogies as circumstances are different than an online mmo, but eco, come on, for the runner up for best debator I expect better.

its not about what you think, its about what works and does not. hardline punishment does not get the results that is desired.

 

[Pastor-Of-Muppets]

I'm glad this is being discussed. ( I don't want to list all the rules to be enforce that I agree or disagree, so I will use what are most common)

I think nearly everyone is in agreement that scammers, ban evasion, botters/speedhackers/ and even other 3rd party software types should be banned.
Where I disagree with the current set up is with account sharing and buying wins.

I want to separate account sharing into two groups, those who use account sharing as an excuse with the big brother excuse and those who make accounts for others.
I'm not going to touch the first subject because this idea of lying about a family member using your account or even if a family member used the account is something that can't be solved I think. Human nature.
The reasoning for banning account sharing makes sense on paper, I get that I really do, and to those who speak predominately English it makes a whole bunch of sense. For those who are not strong in the English language it can be a huge hurdle to overcome and to have someone who can create an account for someone simplifies this. We shouldn't be punishing pokemon fans who want to experience PWO we should include them. They form large closed communities and for the most part keep to themselves. Many will say, English game: English language, but when we are all fans of this series of games and shows we shouldn't be so closed off.

This brings me to another subject thats similar and not too off-topic and that is the Terms of Service. I know we agreed upon signing up for our key that we understand the rules and agree to follow them, this is easy because for the most part its kind of common sense. Many opt for a Too Long; Didn't read style of sign up, scrolling down and clicking agree ONLY to find that you have to check a BOX (Curses!). This cannot change, the idea that once you sign up for an account you AGREE to these rules, I'm fine with that, an approach I'd love to see is a more community building option. If any of you have played Runescape in in recent memory you will remember the Stronghold of Security, a minigame of sorts where answering questions regarding player account safety would reward you with ingame currency and vanity items. This is something I think that has been suggested before and I would love to see something like that implemented to remind and encourage players.

 

[EcoWOLFrb]

While that's very informative, I think you focused too much on the analogy and gave information which isn't really relevant. The main point should be the primary paragraph of my original post, as you said this is an MMO and the analogies aren't perfect, I didn't expect them to be completely relevant to our particular situation and policies... just wanted to show my point.

My statements regarding my particular distaste were just that, my opinion on the matter. I can't see many people disagreeing with me though that illegally obtained pokemon cannot be allowed knowingly into our system if there's evidence enough to abolish them, and if it's known that your illegally obtained material will not be discarded prior to your account being unbanned then it'll only further entice people to try botting to begin with, which will lead to more market damage. This is not jail, there is no real punishment that you can enforce on someone over the internet. You're not going to force them to do anything other than either start a new account, wait for their old account to be unlocked (while starting a new one and botting even more), or go play a new game. Hopefully they'll do the latter, but it would be shameful to let them have their cake and eat it too with a time out without even removing the damage they've done in the first place.

 

[Gobfather]

Hmm, I'm reading Mad30's input here and I'm finding myself somewhat agreeing. How many times do we find one person constantly returning to bot, get banned, bot, get banned, bot get ip banned, ip mask bot again get banned. The way things are it is not stopping an individual from botting. I hear what Eco is saying, but are we trying to stop botters here, or just eliminate their gains? In a world where you knew if you got caught you would be sent to jail, some of course would take that as practice makes perfect, and return to bot only "smarter" just as a convict would do irl. However, I fail to see how that isn't just the case now. I find Mad30s idea very interesting and something that can be altered to better accommodate the botting community. With Mad30's plan here (I would suggest longer than 2 months for sure) you are taking a chance of actually teaching the botter here, and if you came so far to get somewhere as a botter, and you had a one last chance, you really might reconsider throwing it all away over a stupid bot. As is there is no prevention of these botters, they aren't learning anything, I agree this approach may actually teach them something.

This to me seems to be more of a debate of future prevention vs. swift justice, I personally vote for prevention (which in itself here is still justice).

As for the other idea of wiping an account, and allowing them to continue with the same account, you've taken everything away from them. This only gives the botter the sense of "well I have nothing to lose" and we're back here where we started. They will just bot again, they have nothing to protect, nothing to lose. If someone is willing to bot in the first place, and if completely banning their account isn't stopping them, how is wiping their pokemon and pokemoney and leaving them the account going to produce anything different?

 

[mad30]

i agree eco, they shouldnt have their cake and have it to. what i do know is the current system DOES NOT WORK and that i dont know what system will be perfect. however unless people understand just how messed up the system currently is, we will never advance what makes non cheaters feel good and find an improved system.

 

[BRGodEastwood]

Eco, the child who gets whooped is also just as likely to do something he shouldn't again. He's already felt the worse punishment. He knows what to expect, and his skin will be tougher after each whooping, leading to less pain. Or, the kid will just be more secretive and become a better liar. If you progressively increment the level of punishment, you instill more fear, as they know after each time they do something wrong, it'll get worse. Even if the endgame is still the same for both punishments, fear and thought are instilled in increment punishment. You don't jump to your big gun otherwise people will get indifferent to it. Best example is the kick system in game. No one uses the mute system properly, so players nowadays are asking for kicks just for fun. They've become oblivious to it.

My three step rehabilitation program (rehabilitation > punishment) which would result in 2 temp bans (30, 60, or up to judgement depending on severity) and then a stronger ip ban, with every account related getting hit (plus wipes on every account every ban), gives them no excuses. They can't beg for a second chance after the final ban. No appeal, nothing. They're more smarter about their actions. You get 3 chances, after that no chance of being unbanned in the future.

I also would like to point out, its not a 3 strikes you're out per account. It's 3 strikes per individual. If you bot on one account, then make another via proxy, and get caught again, thats strike 2.


@gobfather: From the many players I banned ( I've been told I still own the record) A lot of them just wanted the account back. They didn't want to go through the hassle of getting all the badges, doing all the quests again, and etc. More than that, they wanted the name back.

But don't get me wrong. During my time as GM, we lurked in a lot of botter forums. Some people bot just because. Nothing we can do about that. No form of punishment or rehabilitation will change that, they just want to exploit the game.

Some other players fall under temptation, and then get popped and regret it. a temp ban plus an account wipe (or just removing shinies/ everything with their OT) will give them a slap in the face, and prevent them from feeling tempted again.


FYI to all you people reading, Admin's have the ability to trace where all pokemon stop, so there honestly is no outsmarting them. They'll know when you're moving your stuff to a mule, just to bot on another acc and etc.


In the end though, a perfect system will not be found, until there is a bigger, scarier ban. Temp bans are the way to go for first and second offenders. But to prevent them from becoming a 3rd and 4th, there needs to be a big stick. Something that is actually threatening, and difficult to get around. Only then will the temp ban punishments deter everyone.

 

[Peace-Enforcer]

I'm too lazy to read thro all posts but from what I did read, this is what I have to say.

PWO staff are not our parents. Every one has/had there parents, so it's not up to the staff to raise them but to enforce a law which are PWO rules. Only thing that should be led in question is how harsh an offence was (court system if we get some good idea) and how dengerous was/is hes behaviour to the community and the game it self.

If looking at this. Any hacker should get an IP ban instantly since he is indangering the whole system known as PWO and in that way the whole community, which is us. Botters are just a different form of hacking so eather sum them all up in one group or make them 2nd harshest offence. So let them have a chance and IP ban if it's repeated. (Punishement for 1st offence should be disscusted)

I agree that any other offence should be disscused on how to handle regarding punishment...

 

[EcoWOLFrb]

Some other players fall under temptation, and then get popped and regret it. a temp ban plus an account wipe (or just removing shinies/ everything with their OT) will give them a slap in the face, and prevent them from feeling tempted again.

FYI to all you people reading, Admin's have the ability to trace where all pokemon stop, so there honestly is no outsmarting them. They'll know when you're moving your stuff to a mule, just to bot on another acc and etc.

This would be fine, preferably I'd like a complete wipe of anyone's account if they're botting, but removing the damages (IF it contributes to preventing them from botting again) is a decent compromise. I still see other people being more willing to give it a shot if there's not severe punishments awaiting that option though, so while you may help reduce the amount of repeat offenders you'll probably dramatically increase the amount of first time offenders. But it may be worth a try as long as they won't get illegally obtained pokemon back even if it is a first time offense.

 

[Arnie]

thats my answer to this conundrum

 

[Ktm4424]

Ok so posting one here now with my dilemma of the appeal system. To start out i feel that there should be a first offense second offense and then ban system. I feel players should have a second chance to redeem themselves by returning stolen merchandise or money and if they do not then be banned. Sometimes things may look like botting or hacking but a player may not be doing it on purpose there are bugs and lots of lagging in the client.

i have also reviewed many bans on the forums through out the staff and some are obvious yes but sometimes people watch tv while grinding through Pokemon trying to find what they want and this is not botting and players get wrongfully accused and have no way of proving there innocence other than there word which a lot of times doesn't mean squat if it looks like they are i myself have other things i pay attention to and find myself out of the grass or places i don't want to be but your mind does wander when playing especially when something peaks your interest and you turn away and still moving around even if it is in the same steps over and over. and i feel in that sense players should be given a chance to explain themselves and receive a warning but if in 5 minutes after a staff member puts them in a place and the player still seems like they are unresponsive and this is there second offense and its conclusive evidence that the player is unresponsive then give them a temp ban of 30 or 60 days .

Maybe put them in a group that shows the player has a warning that if done again they will be permanently banned. but there should be steps not straight actions taken toward them because some are wrongfully accused and i am sure players out there wouldn't like to be banned without any chance to correct there wrong doing or prove there innocence.

In my opinion taking there membership away or having to wait 30 or 60 days is a good punishment for the first or second offense especially if they have a lot of good stuff they don't want to loose. I feel if someone gets banned they wont care if they do it again because there is nothing to lose anymore and i should be the one to know from working with Comcast or any other internet provider it is easy to change an ip address by using a hotspot from your phone so really its not helping the matter by just banning accounts without certain steps to let the player to keep his account but instead be warned that he will be banned if seen doing it again. And trust me if i wanted to bot its not that hard to farm accounts with different ip addresses just by using my phone.

Lastly there should be a discussion through out the staff on creating a more efficient appeal system.Because there is no way they can detect if the player is really using a program to help them get an advantage over another player. Some might not see it my way but to keep the game from loosing members and ultimately losing business if you would because us players with membership or non membership do put hours upon hours into this game and some of us put money toward things that keeps this game going and i would hate to see the game loose money that would help this game develop into a game that maybe millions would play someday. so please hear my plea and do something about the way punishment and appeals are handled

 

[Bluerise]

Paragraphs, they exist!

 

[Ktm4424]

Well peace enforcer what happens when you are wrongfully accused of such rule breaking and you have put so much time in for your account and no matter what you say there is no way of getting them to believe you and your account is banned perm or ip ban then what all the time you put into a game and its gone for nothing and until it happens to you i suggest you not jump to such hasty conclusions on how the way things should be handled. I understand What the GMs have to go through and What players have to go through with the appeal process and punishments dealt out. And if you feel that it shouldn't be changed then i hope you go through what some of these other wrongfully accused players go through starting all over losing memberships and money spent or for non membership players the work they did to get where they are and for it to get taken away for assumption of botting and other rules that may be broken. So in turn the system or Staff has no way to detect a program with proof other than the duel clients. So for that i feel if they can not fully detect the program then where is the proof. anyone can watch a close sports game or a good movie or tv show and keep moving there fingers in the same steps because after a while its like second nature. and while those other activities like sports games or tv get your mind interested and you watch it while playing and you have no idea whats going on when you look back and that's not botting and its being wrongfully accused. so before you stat your opinion actually have a legitimate argument

 

[Ktm4424]

And for Blue Rise

I believe that the punishments should be appointed in the manner it was done for example
Botting- there has to be a way to detect other programs running with the client or a way to turn off the ability to use other programs with the client but for punishment if you can actually do what i stated above then a perm ban should be issued. But if you cant turn off the programs or detect them i believe they should have a first and second chance then ban or a 30 day ban and then a 60 day ban and then perm ban them and Maybe by putting there name in a group of accused and why to have for a type of record and once banned permanently delete the name so it doesn't clutter up and waste space
Scamming- In my opinion if you give what you took back by accident then it should be forgiven but if they player refuses to give back what he has taken then a 30 day or 60 day ban should be placed like a warning to a player and then if it should happen again permanently ban them
Duel clients- Give them a warning and then a # of days banned then permanently ban them because sometimes two of the same players play on the same computer and if one logs out and the other logs in pretty fast and the system bugs its not there fault. But steps should be taken to investigate these players not instant ban.
Hacking-IF the player is caught hacking and its not a bug or lag then i feel this should have a warning and then preeminently ban the player.

And so forth with the same thing but i believe there should be steps taken in the chances a player gets to redeem himself or make things right or even get a break if it seems like he botted or scammed but didn't do it on purpose. Sometimes GMs do not listen to reason and just go with what they may have seen but in life you should know by now Things are not always what they seem and the Staff in my opinion do not take that into account and just go by what they see and they cant understand what the player is going through or doing at the time which it happend i believe these rules even what i stated would be a more efficient way to punish players that do wrong instead of the way the appeal and punishment system is now

Thank you for your time Blue Rise much respect and feel free to write me at anytime and even help with coming up with a new way to maybe have a judicial system in which the way i explained is used and helpful and makes players happy. I am sure if this happened to you and you were wrongfully accused and no one would listen to reason you would feel that this system is maybe better to give the player a chance. By the way thank you for all your hard work to you and all your staff members.

 

[Orean]

Before the discussion derails off-course, it should be noted that this discussion isn't geared to revolve around allegedly innocent bans, or to re-examine the methodology used in the detection system/protocol; the discussion is meant to discuss whether the GMs are being too strict or lenient in their approach towards enforcing punishments for rule violations—in this context, we're discussing whether the staff is too strict in punishing someone for an offense that's established to be proven.

It may be an understandable sentiment for some to fret over how effective, accurate and sensible the detection methods/procedures are, but it does not mean the inner details of these methods should be discussed openly and explicitly. The evidence, and the operational method in collecting it, is confidential, and can not be revealed to the public in the eyes, as it would encourage and instruct players to devise workarounds beyond it.

The bottom line: this topic is used to discuss "Is X punishment appropriate if a player has broken Y rule, and how can a different approach be aken?", not "Are the detection/investigational procedures reliable, credible and ethical?"—the latter is something that you'll have to trust the GM+ staff to work out behind the scenes (which they have made rigorous/thorough efforts towards before choosing to rely on the system), since discussing them publicly will only poke another hole into the security system, due to the reasons mentioned.

 

[Ktm4424]

Then A why did one of the GMs point me toward this post if in what i was talking in a general topic i posted about the same thing i have been talking about has almost nothing to do with this topic. And B How in all of those post in both topics i have made or commented in i have not got an answer on why the system of appeal and punishment is flawed and needs to be fixed. and all one of the Gms could say to any of my posts is that in no way should a member have it better over a non member when that's not even what i said at all. i said the members that pay for this game and is the reason this game has made it as far as it has from donations and constant support of this game. And i think its unfair to ban someone that pays money without actual proof of what they used or did and that its not just a big misunderstanding but no one believes you because it looks like you did and that's bull. I was not saying members and non members should be treated differently i just stated that rules need to be changed because membership players are the reason this game is still going. So to conclude this and hopefully i get a response from an admin this time so its not wasting my time with mediocre responses to my questions and statements.

And i think the Gms are to strict in the way they handle the actual punishment when it should have some warnings and then consequences. Not straight to a ban

 

[Merse]

I beg you dude, use paragraphs.
You know, a little ENTER button here and there.... Your posts are long and almost unreadable...
There is nothing wrong with the system IMO. Those who are deliberately try to cheat in the game and gain unlawful benefits should be punished with the highest severity. No first warning, second warning stuff... If there is a killer out there, and he is caught, should he get a warning and be released so he may kill again? No sir!
In PWO, botting or hacking is the most severe crime you may commit, so you should get the most severe punishment for it. Plus a first warning, second warning system would mean that everyone allowed to bot until he is caught two times. This would be ridiculous. Again, you would allow two kills for everyone and send them jail only after the third?

EDIT: It's very nice you call CGs and fellow players "mediocre" and "a waste of time". Says a lot about you...

 

[SapphirePhoenix]

Then A why did one of the GMs point me toward this post if in what i was talking in a general topic i posted about the same thing i have been talking about has almost nothing to do with this topic.

The reason why you were directed here was because you have a problem with the current enforcement system and this thread offers a way for you to voice your opinion about how you would like the staff to handle future punishments. If you don't like how something is being handled, now is your chance to offer an alternative method or explain why you feel something is not working out (but remember that this is not for you to rant about yourself, this is for the game as a whole). I also agree with Merse about your lack of separating paragraphs, I've read your previous posts/topics and your formatting is a bit of a headache to read >.<

My personal opinion is that games shouldn't give preferential treatment to anyone just because they have money, and if the person donates a lot but bots or cheats then so be it, bye to them. I haven't been around much to see the full spectrum of offenses and bans served on this game but based on reading the ban appeals I feel that the mods are doing a nice job with a majority of the cases. The only thing that I think might be a tad overboard is the handling of alt accounts, but I completely understand how hard it is to prove you're not the same person whose associated account was banned for violating a rule (since people tend to greatly abuse the sibling/it wasn't me excuse to the point in which it's not likely to be believed).

 

[Ktm4424]

Why does everyone twist my words. I did not say anyone was mediocre i said there responses to what i was asking or stating did not help me in anyway which i deemed there responses to what i said mediocre.

I am sorry if i hurt anybody's feelings with that response i just wanted answers and the GMs And CGs Were not helping by doing exactly what you just did and micro analyze what i said and get the wrong idea.

I give up anyway no one really cares if players don't get a second chance or not and if they do they don't speak up so if something like that happens to you then deal with it because that's the way the system works now anyway.

GMs are way to strict on people is my answer to this post that has nothing to do on what i was talking about when i was redirected to this post for some odd reason.

And for the last time i am not saying membership players deserve anything. But the time and effort is put in and taken away if i am deemed botting even if i am not and that's not fair for anyone to have all they worked for taken away and not given a second chance.