Display Token Store shiny odds; Make TS "daily deal" discount stack with MS discount.

Jinji

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And therein lies the problem. In any case - I believe I've said all that I care to say publicly on this matter.
 

Jobey

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The odds need to be displayed. If staff fear donation shortfalls then something else needs to change. Either stop changing the odds (easiest option), stop selling token store pokemon and/or shiny chances, or lower the price to something people are willing to pay, fully informed. Common sense does not allow that it should cost $1000-1500 to have an even shot at getting a shiny, in a children's game. Adults will wear diapers and soil themselves when they think their slot machine is hot. How do we expect kids to stop buying TS pokes when they think the next one will be shiny?
So you complain about the economy, you complain about good token pokemon being too hard to get, you complain about shiny chances both in game and in token store being too hard, and then you complain how "donations" are "theft".

It comes off alot that you want it to be where you pay just a little money here and there and should be able to have any good/shiny token pokemon you want. That's called pay to win, but here's the irony of your statements, you want the shiny odds to be lowered and everything to be easier, yet if that was to happen you would be the first to post another compliant on forums about how the economy is bad because it's now too hard to sell your good/shiny token pokemon that everyone now already has.

Anyway, I know you argue that you just want the shiny odds revealed and that does seem like it's a major point for you, but reading your posts it seems much deeper than just that. I will state though I do slightly agree with you now that revealing the shiny odds may not be a bad idea (though I do feel it won't matter much because if people are donating for shiny pokemon or such, they will donate no matter the odds).

As for the people spending thousands of dollars to try and get those pokemon, that's on them. It's their money so they can spend it how they see fit, but it's up to them to be responsible about it. If they are adults, they are responsible for themselves, if they are kids then the parents are responsible for them.

This statement is coming from somebody who has spent lots on this game, but I have always been smart about it(as I assume most players are too), never spending what I didn't have and would prioritize everything else above it. It's really not as hard to avoid being self consumed by this game as you may think as most players are not as naive as you may think.
 
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thunderclap

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In that case, I would argue that a better course of action would actually be to increase our own social responsibility by limiting excessive donations and token redemption. I would actually be deeply concerned if I discovered the primary motivation for a donor is because they were seeking a specific shiny and would actually suggest such people probably need some sort of intervention.
That would be another good solution. But why not just display the odds? Nobody has said any good reasons not to.
So you complain about the economy, you complain about good token pokemon being too hard to get, you complain about shiny chances both in game and in token store being too hard, and then you complain how "donations" are "theft".
I said "almost like a form of theft", meaning it's related to theft, but I don't know the exact fancy big word for it. Entrapment, enticement, deception, idk, based on odds that baffle common sense. Those words aren't right either, just re-read my whole paragraph.
...you would be the first to post another compliant on forums about how the economy is bad because it's now too hard to sell your good/shiny token pokemon that everyone now already has.
Again, all I ever asked for is easier, still too difficult, and not easy. I don't even care about reducing the token shiny odds, just tell us what they are, and display it prominently. I don't get why it's a big deal whatsoever - it should have been done already.

It's not about me. My suggestions are about improving this game, not my shiny collection. My pokemon will lose value if things are too easy. See my "lucky item and disposal NPC" suggestion thread for ideas that will improve the economy and playerbase.
threatening with countermeasures
Nobody has threatened me or told me to stop. Threatening without giving good reasons not to reveal the odds, might tempt other more cynical people to interpret that as an admission of intent to deceive. Citing a likely decline in donations as a reason not to reveal the odds is basically the same thing.
honesty and transparency
 
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Boora

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i don't get it, the shiny odds are a number, it's irrelevant, if you were told it's 1/50 you could say "holy s***" 7$x50 average omg thats too much
while the guy in your BL would say "that's it ? sweet let's go" , the number means nothing, it already exists. knowing it wont do anything,

And again, there's a difference between a transaction and a donation, You contribute to keep the server running and in return you get tokens that you can use as you please, if you don't want to use it for shiny tries without knowing the odds, sell them and buy the shiny off someone in-game.
you have alternative options, showing the number means literally nothing.

if you're fighting to lower it, i already replied to that on the first page, and i'l add, it only looks hard due to the amount of active players, back in the day WITH THE SAME ODDS ,we had literally up to 5 new (S)uc's a day in-game to the point shiny dragonites were 80m and none battlers were literally unsellable, i remember (S)blissy in mart for over 3 months for 50m , lowering odds +returning players, will just flood the market.

imo, let's stick with your npc idea, i honestly LOVED IT.
 

thunderclap

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Someone potentially donating $100 deserves to know if they have a 5% chance or a 50% chance at getting a shiny pokemon. I'm pretty sure most people would naively assume it's closer to 50% or higher, again that's what common sense would imply, and also implied by the fact they sell 10 packs of shiny chances. Nobody outside of the very few most diehard players would donate $100 purely to help the server costs. It's unreasonable to expect people to donate blindly, given the overall state of this game. Everything is driven by self-interest. All I really care about is making those shiny odds known to people before they get disappointed and quit PWO in a rage. It's a very small change, and there's no reason not to do it. Making the TS pokes cheaper is less important.

Glad you and some others like my NPC idea. I like it too!
 

Boora

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I see your point, don't get me wrong, and i'm sure a lot of other people do, what you seem to miss is the fact that it's a donation to keep the server running, even jinji said he'd rather look into limiting the amount you can donate over letting people spam,
i get it, if someone wants to throw 10$ at a chance for a shiny he should know if it's worth it, but that logic is flawed because it might called a token store but in reality you donate to keep the server up and as an insentive you get tokens, we had many years without any shiny chance and people still donated, we had years with chances so low that only one espeon was found within literal years, we had years you can outright buy a shiny for 25$, things change, what stays constant is the fact that you donate to keep the server you love from going away, you don't buy tokens to give lee a paycheck.
and until you honestly and truely understand the difference, this so called arguemant will never end.
 

thunderclap

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that logic is flawed because it might called a token store but in reality you donate to keep the server up and as an insentive you get tokens
Your logic is flawed. In an ideal world people would donate without any incentive, only to help. In our less than perfect world most people donate primarily for the tokens, and helping the server is a side-bonus. (Altruism ratio varying per player and over time). If we removed the token store and memberships altogether, I guarantee donations would drop to almost nothing.
we had many years without any shiny chance and people still donated
That's because there were still memberships, which probably account for the bulk of donations, and the game used to have hundreds of players on at all times.
you don't buy tokens to give lee a paycheck.
Lee doesn't get a paycheck either way. Excess donations, we're told, go to charity.
jinji said he'd rather look into limiting the amount you can donate over letting people spam
I already said that I would support this. But they should also reveal the TS shiny odds. Even one TS poke costs a lot of money for what it is.
we had years you can outright buy a shiny for 25$
This works against your argument. If it was so easy back then, those players don't deserve to have their untouchable monopoly of wealth preserved forever, forbidding any changes to prices/odds. My understanding is that there's very few (if any) of those purchased shinies remaining on active accounts.
__

Keeping the TS shiny odds secret seems (in absence of compelling reasons) a calculated psychological manipulation to extract the most money from players. If staff want people to donate more altruistically, be honest and transparent with players, receive suggestions logically with open minds, and keep making the game one worthy of donating to. 2020 has been a great year for PWO so far with all these great events and swarms -- thank you all very much for that!
 
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Boora

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Your logic is flawed. In an ideal world people would donate without any incentive, only to help. In our less than perfect world most people donate primarily for the tokens, and helping the server is a side-bonus. (Altruism ratio varying per player and over time). If we removed the token store and memberships altogether, I guarantee donations would drop to almost nothing.
Oh, i know that, and agree with that, you need to be a monkey not to see that (no offense to anyone ofc)
But peoples agendas are irrelevant when you're clearly well aware before you put a cent into the game it's a donation
and touching on memberships hurts your argumant a lot more than mine, my entire point was you get tokens and can do with them as you please, buying memberships back than and now is the main source of funds, at least i should very much hope so
That's because there were still memberships, which probably account for the bulk of donations, and the game used to have hundreds of players on at all times.
Exactly, There are still memberships,items,none shinies, that people can get from donating. and i'm sure if funds are needed, a better insentive will pop up.
Lee doesn't get a paycheck either way. Excess donations, we're told, go to charity.
That's exactly my point, you donate to keep the server up, you just argued my point for me, chances aren't hidden to manipulate players, they're hidden (i assume, as i'm not staff) to avoid arguamnts just like this one "it's too high, " "it's too low " "raise it " "lower it "


This works against your argument. If it was so easy back then, those players don't deserve to have their untouchable monopoly of wealth preserved forever, forbidding any changes to prices/odds.
Actually, it was just for a day iirc, as an event of some kind, forgive my old man brain was many years ago, and they're untouchable because it's not possible to earn atm without being lucky. you can't hold it against old players, it all goes back to your npc suggestion, if you let people earn, they will, and can buy anything, hard work should be rewarded not just luck.

Keeping the TS shiny odds secret seems (in absence of compelling reasons) a calculated psychological manipulation to extract the most money from players. If staff want people to donate more altruistically, be honest and transparent with players,
You're given a FREE choice to buy a shiny chance, it's a chance, you don't have to, you can buy ms or sell the tokens or do any kind of things, it's something you choose to do.


to sum everything up, i see you point, i think the problem is much deeper like i've stated before, revleaing the odds, it might shock you, but i'm not against or for it, i don't care as long as they don't change, i just want to give people something to do other than mindlessly go left and right all day, a viable purpose if you will, if i grind i will get money and will be able to buy the poke i want, if i get a shiny rat, i can sell it, it's not useless.
that's the mind set i want people to have, and it'll only be possible with your npc idea, i'm tired of grinding ? let's do the DAILY QUESTs, also an idea.


also, ily tc <3
 
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thunderclap

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That's exactly my point, you donate to keep the server up, you just argued my point for me, chances aren't hidden to manipulate players, they're hidden (i assume, as i'm not staff) to avoid arguamnts just like this one "it's too high, " "it's too low " "raise it " "lower it "
And we could tell those players "if you don't like the odds, don't buy any TS pokemons", and many would heed the warnings. The way it is now, people spend their money before realizing they barely had a chance. There's more freedom in making an informed decision than in an uninformed decision. I can "freely" choose to start smoking even if I don't know it's addictive and causes cancer. Yeah we can blame the player either way, but PWO holds some ethical responsibility too because the common sense expectation is so far from the probable outcome. Especially since many players are children and their guardians wouldn't know how difficult PWO is. Would your argument change if the odds were secretly 1 in 100 billion?
 
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Jobey

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Someone potentially donating $100 deserves to know if they have a 5% chance or a 50% chance at getting a shiny pokemon. I'm pretty sure most people would naively assume it's closer to 50% or higher,
You must really underestimate the intelligence of the player base. XD I'm sure people assume it to be closer to the 2%-5% range with maybe 10% tops. A majority of players are not so naive as to assume it's anywhere near 50% LOL Just because most players don't go out of their way to come off as being smart, doesn't mean they are complete fools. I mean I've never considered my self overly smart, but even I have always considered it to be no greater than 1/80 - 1/100 odds. (Odds just around 1% or more)
 
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thunderclap

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I meant most people would assume a ~50% chance of a shiny when buying 10 (spending $100 basically). Not 50% each pokemon.

People really only understand statistics and probability well if they've studied them a bit. It's not a standard curriculum topic in Canadian schools, at least, and it's not that intuitive. Some people still don't get it after pages of forum debate :p. That doesn't make them complete fools.
 
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Hugh~Mungus

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should just have a option to buy a shiny for $100 :) jk that would be crazy haha .
 
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