PWO's Economy?

risefromruins

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Had a little discussion with another player in PWO today about the in game economy and tokens.

First off, I know the economy is extremely flawed. I am personally trying to help fix it, but everyone in game needs to be willing to accept change for a positive result to happen on our economy.

The main thing I want to talk about is tokens.

6 tokens equals membership. 6 tokens also equals....lets say a Porygon.

Now no one in the right mind would ever pay 20m for a Porygon.....but then why is membership selling for around that price?

If anyone can answer me that question then I will give them a Shiny Alakazam.......you know why I am willing to put him up there as an offer? Because no one can answer that question because it doesn't make sense.

I'd like to hear the community's input on this because after realizing this today.....things need to be changed.
 

psychosamm

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It doesn't make sense

S alakazam plz?

Haha but seriously i agree with you, i dont get it either, itd be easier if people could just pay cash for in game money along with tokens, to stop to weird exchange rates.

Like $1 equals 5m or whatever.
 

KstersSlade

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I dont know if this goes with what your trying to say but players really dont know the value of pokemon nowadays. This one guy was sellling a pikachu for like 150k, now I dont know if he was joking or trying to scam someone but I remeber when i first started out pikachu went for at least 2-3m and now its reduced to like 500k and lower. Maybe it didnt have good stats but its a HR for a reason. Another one was ponyta some guy was selling it for like 15k when it should be going for at least 100k-200k, which is what it used to be around like a year ago when I joined.
 

psychosamm

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KstersSlade said:
I dont know if this goes with what your trying to say but players really dont know the value of pokemon nowadays. This one guy was sellling a pikachu for like 150k, now I dont know if he was joking or trying to scam someone but I remeber when i first started out pikachu went for at least 2-3m and now its reduced to like 500k and lower. Maybe it didnt have good stats but its a HR for a reason. Another one was ponyta some guy was selling it for like 15k when it should be going for at least 100k-200k, which is what it used to be around like a year ago when I joined.
Pika is VR, not sure if that was a typo, if not that would explain the price drop from when you were playing last. People mostly pay for pokemon that are good for battling, and Ponyta and Pika aren't particularly good, which i think is why the prices are so low. And rare pokemon like Exeggcute are worth a ton more if it has good stats.
 

KstersSlade

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Ohh yeah on route 2 he is HR but VR everywhere else but still when I first started out people where selling those two for way more then what they are selling them now. I am just saying its changed alot from a year ago.
 

MrFlare2

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I think i can accurately answer this.


People pay 20-30mil for ms, because they have a chance to earn shinies easily, and even S Rares, like Gastly, and earn more money. So they pay more because they like the extra experience points for daycaring, earning more money, getting a better chance at finding S Commons, S rares, and even S VR's and S HR's. Not gonna hurt to try that, right? But with a porygon, having only Porygon 2 as an accesible evolution, they gain NOTHING out of it except dex data, and possibly saving that porygon/porygon-2 for when (or if) porygon Z is made accessible to players. thats pretty much the only use of Porygon.


But if you're looking for more in depth answer, like why Beldum is 15 tokens, and sells for like 6 tokens, is probably because people would think "Huh, 6 tokens = 30 mil, i can probably sell an MS with that money, and id probably make that 20-30 mil i potentially lost with that beldum, or i can get an MS for myself and hunt and S gastly, thus getting me TWO beldums!"

Really, i think THATS the reasoning. Feel free to correct me.
 

Mangos

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Supply and demand... people want memberships. They don't want porygons. They're not stupid. The only reason any value is even determined in pwo is what people want to pay. If they don't want a poke as a whole, that pokes value drops. Hence the porygon may be a UC, but if people arent willing to pay the desired price due to porygons value being dropped. They arent going to. Its not a hard concept to grasp. Economy is what we made it.

Personally I don't like having large amounts of cash, a while ago money was worth nothing, now its worth more. I would rather have pokes which can only gain value as the game gets better and more moves get implemented. Would I want a porygon though? Not unless its shiny <3
 

Faabz.

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Well in my situation sometimes it gets really hard to earn money in PWO.
I would like to buy MS/Tokens but i can't,cuz the only payment method is PayPal,so as you imagine i don't find loads of shiny's and it's really hard to save a good amount of money.

But i agree when someone above said nobody knows the exactly price of a Pokémon today.I paid around 70k for a Glalie and i see people putting it on sale for a good amount of money.
 

mad30

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Mangos said:
Supply and demand... people want memberships. They don't want porygons. They're not stupid. The only reason any value is even determined in pwo is what people want to pay. If they don't want a poke as a whole, that pokes value drops. Hence the porygon may be a UC, but if people arent willing to pay the desired price due to porygons value being dropped. They arent going to. Its not a hard concept to grasp. Economy is what we made it.
Mangos is exactly right, give her the alakazam.

Issue is, the economy is fine for your situation, PWO is what's failing their. In real life PWO would either lower prices of porygon (assuming no one is buying it as a donation) or take w/e profits or loss's and be happy.

Selling porygons is like selling a used item, we don't care how much it resells for as we won't see that profit, infact while not pwos intent, having it at a higher resell value is better as then players might think its not worth buying used and just buy new again.

Memberships on the other hand, both the manufacture and the person selling it benefits. This is like buying a new computer with windows pre-installed. Both the retail place that is selling it to the buyer (players/best buy) as well as the windows manufacture (microsoft/pwo) are both benefiting.

This is part of business economics, things that once consumed can't be consumed anymore, and the timeline on the consumption, have a different value on them than things that can be continuously used yet never consumed. Reasons why text books for school is so high in america is because once a book is bought, no matter how many times it's resold the manufacture of the book only gets money from the first initial sales.

From the buyers view stance, it's simply what they value, more people value membership over a porygon.
 

CheckeredZebra

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Ahhh people beat me to the kazam. Ohwell.

Also note friend membership is not available right now. This means people have to directly pay with tokens to give somebody membership rather than using free tokens they already had. So, even less supply.
 

Mangos

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mad30 said:
Mangos said:
Supply and demand... people want memberships. They don't want porygons. They're not stupid. The only reason any value is even determined in pwo is what people want to pay. If they don't want a poke as a whole, that pokes value drops. Hence the porygon may be a UC, but if people arent willing to pay the desired price due to porygons value being dropped. They arent going to. Its not a hard concept to grasp. Economy is what we made it.
Mangos is exactly right, give her the alakazam.



Yay im right xD, gimme shiny alakazam <3. No but seriously.... were you serious? :eek:
 

Tortuga

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Easy to say, People want features like they get from Membership to get more profit ingame to buy their own pokes than buying a Porygon (which can really be bad in this game). Some like the poke but don't know if its worth the risk to buy the poke and try sell. As some said, they will mostly only get the pdex info about it than saving it(unless they're a collector).

Question is: Would you like to pay 6$/6 Tokens for a pokemon you've no experience of in PWO OR would you be on the safe side and sell MS (25m+) or keep it for yourself and try to find Shiny pokes and get the bonus stats as increased pokedollar and EXP?
 

mad30

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Mangos said:
mad30 said:
Mangos said:
Supply and demand... people want memberships. They don't want porygons. They're not stupid. The only reason any value is even determined in pwo is what people want to pay. If they don't want a poke as a whole, that pokes value drops. Hence the porygon may be a UC, but if people arent willing to pay the desired price due to porygons value being dropped. They arent going to. Its not a hard concept to grasp. Economy is what we made it.
Mangos is exactly right, give her the alakazam.



Yay im right xD, gimme shiny alakazam <3. No but seriously.... were you serious? :eek:

yes, supply and demand is the correct answer according to me. Rise may not agree, which ultimately is his call to give away s kazam
 
G

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Alright so I'm going to include a lot of information that many of you will already know or will seem obvious after I say it, just a warning. This is also based upon the idea that you're living in the USA which many of you aren't.

First let's take a look at our two currencies and why things have value:

Membership - This means one (or two) months of double experience, and a 3x shiny chance. At 6 tokens or $6 a month, this isn't hard to understand because for anyone with a job, and a bit of disposable income, who spends a reasonable chunk of time on the game, this means getting to your goals 2-3x as fast (depending on your goal.) Since even the lowest income in the USA per hour of government approved work and pay, is around $6.50, this means that for an hour (and maybe another twenty minutes after income tax,) of pain or whatever it is you do as a job, you can make every hour on PWO many times more effective, while not taking away any fun out of the game, because you're still putting in the "work." Since we're already on the topic, let's now visit the poke'bucks side of this. 20 million. How much is that? As a new player, I have no idea how much it is to the rest of you, but that seems like a lot. However, given the advantages it provides, and how much more effective it makes your time, if you do happen to have an easy way of making a lot of in game money, it's really no big deal to drop this on something that is this high in tangible value. The tangible part is the time spent.

Various Levels of Rarity in Pokemon - So, depending on how rare a pokemon is, presumably it's worth more regardless of in what currency because it'll take more time to catch it. Simply put, if you aren't all that fond of spending hours looking for that Horribly Rare pokemon and you make more than that pokemon's value in standard $ wages for the same amount of time it would take to find, it's worth purchasing with real money or tokens. So if that's the case, why is it that more of these aren't sold? Surely more people make enough money that it would be worth it by that standard. However that's not actually how value works here, because if people didn't like finding rare pokemon, they probably wouldn't be playing this game, and even if they did play the game, and hated hunting for pokemon anyway, they have to grind. So we take in the enjoyment factor of their job, the enjoyment factor of the game, and how likely they think they are to encounter that pokemon while naturally grinding. Now everyone will have completely different answers for each of those variables, but the answers actually aren't all that important, we're just showing what's involved in each person's thought process. I should probably also mention that some people think that they can make enough pokemoney (through selling pokemon or grinding, doesn't matter) to obtain these even if they don't naturally encounter them.

Uncatchables - This is where things actually simplify. We can remove the fun of the hunt and enjoyment of the game factors here, because they never come into play. There is no way to obtain these unless you can purchase them with tokens, or from another player who has done so. For every pokemon of these types, money has been spent, and all we care about is the first two transactions. The RMT (real money transfer,) and if it then get's sold for pokemoney.
The initial purchase is all to do with two questions, only one of which is applicable at any one time:
1. Would I work my job X time for this pokemon.
2. Would I work my job X time for the pokemoney this pokemon will bring.
If the answer to number two is yes, then the purchase is made and the 2nd buyer gets to ask a question:
1. Would I work this game X time for this pokemon. - The problem here is that in this question X is not known by the person buying the pokemon. They can only guess or estimate.

----------------------- THE IMPORTANT PART----------------------​

Now I've skipped any translation of currency, and switched it over to time because it's more consistent. None of that actually maters anyway, because those aren't actually the questions. Pokemon is just a filler word. What we're really asking is "Would I work ________ for this amount of desirable." And this concept applies to above as well, with the membership. I'm sure that up to this point, almost none of what I've typed before this paragraph really even matters, but it's there so that you can be lead into this next part, and that we are on the same page.

Players control the PokeCurrency values. Players Control the amount of desirable. Players do not control the "real currency" value. Naturally because different parties disagree on what each value is, there is discrepancy. Sorting people into the three groups:

Real Currency Controllers - Game Staff.
Poke Currency Controllers - Players as a whole.
Desireable Controllers - Players as Individuals.

Naturally the game staff has a certain amount of control over all currency types, because they can make decisions like making X object stronger or rarer (and thus more valuable,) or increase the amount of currency going into or being taken out of the game, but the direct control at the level of real currency control just isn't there.

Players as a whole find membership very valuable. Game Staff do not, they find membership is more valuable if more people can afford it, because it has an infinite supply. Players individually will disagree a bit on the exact desirableness (that's why not everyone has it, and not everyone is without,) however Players as a whole is loosely based on players as individuals, and the fact that it is in fact desirable to anyone (regardless of by how much,) means that it does have great value. Like food, everyone wants membership, it's just how badly do you want it?

On to Porygon! Players as individuals do not find porygon to be of great desire. There are players who flat out don't want it because it would take up box space and provide nothing in return (despite infinite box space having too many pokemon to go through can still be a hassle.) Players as whole (due to players as individuals) do not find porygon to be of high desirableness. Staff however find it equally as valuable as membership because it is equally easy to produce, and give as membership is. Staff has set a minimum cost on things of this nature.

This all, the whole situation is the equivocation of books. Assume you have two books by the same author. We'll use Orson Scott Card as an example here. Assuming they have the same number of pages, Ender's Game, and Ender's Shadow (two books by the author) have the same printing cost. They have the same shipping cost, so naturally the have the same total cost. However, the contents of one (let's say Ender's Shadow,) are better, and make for a much better read. Since they are the same cost to make, the publisher decides to sell them for the same price. Naturally more Ender's Shadow is sold. Now, there is demand for the book to be available for polish money as opposed to USD. Because it's not the publisher selling the books in Poland, and they're being resold, initial price, and exchange rates are ignored. Instead the reseller simply wants to make a profit over what he spent on them in his native USD. He knows that Ender's Shadow is better, so it will sell better, so he can sell it for more, so be buys more of it, and sells it, and makes mad profit. The Publisher never adjusts their prices, because they dont know what is going on, or how to take advantage of it.

This whole situation actually makes perfect sense. The token price of Membership, and Porygon, is simply wrong. Either membership can be sold for more, without dropping profit, or Porygon can be sold for less, while increasing profit. Because there is no way to directly purchase Poke-Currency, there is no regulation on the value of things directly. If you want to fix this "issue" you need to use one of these two solutions:

1. Find a way to directly control value (such as put a hard minimum on value, or create a direct way to buy poke-currency.)
2. Adjust your current view point of the value of various things, so that they more closely match those of the players as whole, and players as individuals, and in adjusting your viewpoint, adjust your prices.

-------------

Now maybe someone else can word it better, or shorter, or something like that, but I've answered your question. Perhaps not in the way you want, or wanted to hear. Maybe it's not the answer you were looking for. I don't expect the S Alakazam, because you said it with the assumption that your question couldn't be answered, however if you're feeling kind or generous, I wouldn't be opposed to receiving one. I can assure you though, I'm more fond of Aron, shiny or not (cant trade anyway, so it's not like I could sell the Alakazam regardless.) :p

-----------

I see some people saying that it's supply and demand, the reason this isn't exactly right is because both have a presumably infinite supply, and if you demand it, you can surely find someone who is more than willing the supply it. Supply and demand is more about ratios than it is about actual numbers. Few people demand porygons so I'd imagine few people buy them. Many people want membership, so many people buy them. If this was strictly a supply and demand issue, as few porgyon or memberships became available, they'd become more valuable. A lot of time the simple fact that there isn't much supply creates a large amount of demand.
 
G

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That may be what's meant, but 300% of 100 is 300, because 100% of 100 is 100. What should be being said, if the bonus is really 4x, is either 400%, or a "Bonus of 300%" or something along those lines.
 

Maideza

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Usually it's 1/8192

Then MS increase the chance by 300%, to 1/2048

4x
 

mad30

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NoxiousIce said:
That may be what's meant, but 300% of 100 is 300, because 100% of 100 is 100. What should be being said, if the bonus is really 4x, is either 400%, or a "Bonus of 300%" or something along those lines.
The key word is bonus or increase, this means on top of what's already there.

Say you are making 20k a year for a job. Next year your income increased by 100%. You are now making 40k.
 

Mangos

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Although i feel like a broken record is playing... the whole raising membership, dropping porygon value, and putting in a way to directly buy pokemony. Is that what we really want? We've already seen how people with the $ to do so can ultimately dominate this game. I would say yes that is how you could fix it. But is there anything really broken? (Well yes there is but its like... why raise the price of membership until we get something in return for donating. Like maybe a few game upgrades... idk just spitballin... )


NoxiousIce said:
I see some people saying that it's supply and demand, the reason this isn't exactly right is because both have a presumably infinite supply, and if you demand it, you can surely find someone who is more than willing the supply it. Supply and demand is more about ratios than it is about actual numbers. Few people demand porygons so I'd imagine few people buy them. Many people want membership, so many people buy them. If this was strictly a supply and demand issue, as few porgyon or memberships became available, they'd become more valuable. A lot of time the simple fact that there isn't much supply creates a large amount of demand.

I dont think we had the intention of making it about the # of items available. We're just stating that if people want something, people will supply them with it. If they dont. Why would anyone buy it?

If anyone is really that interested in finding how currency gets its value and things I always just google and find things to read lol. Thats how i learn everything so.. idk here... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Currency#Control_and_production
 

risefromruins

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Wasn't serious about the Kazam lol. I just wanted to try and help spark something in the community to think more about why things are the way they are.

And now that I'm about 17 posts behind because I decided to not going on the forums for one night, I'm already lost in my own thread lol. I'm personally very happy with the ideas being thrown around though, it seems like some players are actually starting to think......logically :eek:
 
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