Suggestion to assist newbies starting in Kanto.

[Krysi]

Starting as a newbie in Kanto, reaching Misty only to realise she kicks your butt every time you battle her can be frustrating, especially if you chose Charmander. The problem is that there are very few useful grass type Pokemon to counter Misty's water type Pokemon. Bellsprout, Oddish and even Bulbasaur can be one hit KO'd by Starmie because they all have low defense. Sunkern is even worse, the only way it could possibly do something is if it evolved and well...that requires beating Misty. I don't think Tangela is even worth mentioning here. Since you now need to be at a trade station to trade, trading to beat Misty is not an option either. On the original Nintendo games, we could go back and overlevel our Pokemon easily to resolve this, but in PWO overleveling can take hours/days on end depending on how much free time you have to play. We could also go back to Viridian Forest to hunt for Pikachu for days, but who really wants to do any of this just to be able to progress past one gym in the beginning of the game?

The reason I bring this up is because I feel like this situation doesn't really inspire new players in Kanto to continue playing, but rather it makes them want to quit. So I have two suggestions to possibly solve this issue.

1. A simple solution to this could be that a stronger pure Grass or Electric type that's more common than a Pikachu is put into the earlier routes. Maybe a Pokemon like Mareep or Electrike for pure Electric type and Shroomish or Cacnea for pure Grass type. Basically, a Pokemon we'd be more likely to keep in our main party after defeating Misty instead of something disposable like Sunkern. Personally, I'm leaning toward Shroomish as it has the best defensive/offensive balance, just seems to make the most sense of the bunch and it would fit in Viridian Forest well.

2. An alternative simple solution would be to just make Pikachu more common. I personally don't see why it's as rare as it is, I've never spent two hours hunting for a Pikachu on the original Nintendo games, yet alone days.

 

[Arithalon]

I definitely agree on making Pikachu more common. Although Pikachu has always been a somewhat elusive Pokemon, it is kind of ridiculous that hunting for one takes literally weeks of non-stop devotion. In all probability, I could probably catch a quite few Feebas in Generation 3 games by the time I even encounter a Pikachu on here.

 

[Jinji]

I used to have a family member playing PWO and they observed similar problems - Charmander was always the weak link in Kanto's early gym battles (in FireRed/LeafGreen, Metal Claw was added to Charmander's move-set just to redress the balance; this was inspiration for the battle scene against Brock that featured in the prototype fan-fiction I had on the Forum before the last reset, which I actually still have a copy of unlike my poetry thread :'( ); and in PWO the slow growth rate just adds to the difficulty, even though in an MMO environment some things naturally can't happen as quickly as in a single-player experience. So I understand where you're coming from.

Shroomish has never been a part of my team in any Pokémon game weirdly enough - I never played the Hoenn games and he hasn't cropped up for me in newer titles - so I can't express an opinion on that choice as a new Pokémon to introduce to Viridian Forest. Regarding your other suggestion though of reducing Pikachu's rarity... I actually have personally thought his high rarity is unjustified, but I would like to hear player's opinions on whether an adjustment would be well-received.

 

[magevideogames]

Personally speaking, I think Bellsprout with it's vine whip is sufficient. It may not be the fastest, but it is more than sufficient, especially if you have more then one. Also, I may have missed the change, but if Absorb and Mega Drain worked, Oddish would destroy Misty. yes, having a Pikachu is much better, but it is by no means necessary to because of the reasons mentioned above. Regarding Pikachu's rarity though, I do believe it is too high. I feel the equivalent of the old system's Rare would be better than the old systems Very Rare. Just my thoughts.

 

[Arithalon]

Pikachu's rarity really is unjustified. Yes, perhaps when Pikachu evolves into a Raichu, it can become quite deadly; however, most players would be well beyond the point of battling Misty before they even consider evolving Pikachu. It's not like a player is given a guaranteed win against Misty if they were to catch a Pikachu anyway; it just gives a player another good option to help battle her.

 

[Krysi]

Personally speaking, I think Bellsprout with it's vine whip is sufficient. It may not be the fastest, but it is more than sufficient, especially if you have more then one. Also, I may have missed the change, but if Absorb and Mega Drain worked, Oddish would destroy Misty. yes, having a Pikachu is much better, but it is by no means necessary to because of the reasons mentioned above. Regarding Pikachu's rarity though, I do believe it is too high. I feel the equivalent of the old system's Rare would be better than the old systems Very Rare. Just my thoughts.

It is sufficient if you overlevel it, but it's still fragile like glass prior to evolution. From a newbie's point of view, I personally wouldn't feel like using money I don't have and wasting it all on several Pokeballs to catch multiple Bellsprout just to get past one gym leader. For people who like a challenge and have time, it's fine as it is, but the larger majority is everything but that.

 

[HitmonFonty]

Until about six months ago pikachu in Viridian Forest was almost impossible to find. Since then from what I've seen and experienced it can take a couple of hours to a dozen or more but I haven't heard any say it's taken much longer than that. When I participated in the changes to Viridian Forest spawns late last year this is about what I was after- still making pikachu a challenge but not 'many days' and certainly not impossible. Because of that recent change to Viridian Forest we weren't planning on changing the rates there again, however all feedback on the matter will be taken into account as always.

With the grass pokemon not matching up to Misty, I find this surprising myself. Pikachu is quite weak defense wise and while the grass pokemon have similar special defense they more than make up for that in only taking half damage to water pokemon while dealing double damage with their attacks. I'm not saying that pikachu isn't at least as good vs. Misty but if the grass pokemon are high enough level they shouldn't have trouble beating Misty. Getting them to a high enough level can take a long time as you said though, and that will be changed somewhat in the near future as we re-assess all spawns and levels across Kanto and Johto.

 

[Krysi]

Until about six months ago pikachu in Viridian Forest was almost impossible to find. Since then from what I've seen and experienced it can take a couple of hours to a dozen or more but I haven't heard any say it's taken much longer than that. When I participated in the changes to Viridian Forest spawns late last year this is about what I was after- still making pikachu a challenge but not 'many days' and certainly not impossible. Because of that recent change to Viridian Forest we weren't planning on changing the rates there again, however all feedback on the matter will be taken into account as always.

There was an update? I must not have been around for it, apologies. I'll have to try that out and see if it made a difference.

With the grass pokemon not matching up to Misty, I find this surprising myself. Pikachu is quite weak defense wise and while the grass pokemon have similar special defense they more than make up for that in only taking half damage to water pokemon while dealing double damage with their attacks. I'm not saying that pikachu isn't at least as good vs. Misty but if the grass pokemon are high enough level they shouldn't have trouble beating Misty. Getting them to a high enough level can take a long time as you said though, and that will be changed somewhat in the near future as we re-assess all spawns and levels across Kanto and Johto.

To be honest, I think the issue with the grass types is more based on speed. Because they're slower, Starmie often goes first and the grass types can only manage to get one hit off before they go down.

 

[EcoWOLFrb]

While I agree that pikachu's rarity is a tad high, I don't think it should be any less than rare. I would say that in the beginning of kanto some capable grass pokemon should be available for defeating brock and misty. Or if that's not possible, maybe we can give a Giga Drain TM at a low cost to travelers in the viridian forest? Though honestly I don't see why it's not fine the way it is, I roughed it with a mankey and a charmander, leveling them until my fingertips bled and so can you.

 

[Krysi]

I roughed it with a mankey and a charmander, leveling them until my fingertips bled and so can you.

This is exactly what I mean though, fingertips shouldn't need to bleed at the beginning of the game. Sure this method is fine to some (myself included), but not all...and that's why I've made this topic.

 

[Merse]

I was perfectly fine with my Bellsprout, it went through Misty's team without a hinch....

 

[Saric]

As long as you have access to the clearing you can nab a good grass type to carry you through. But the biggest issue I see is the unnecessarily steep exp curve at low levels. You're going to need a couple thousand exp just to level up but at the same time you're only getting maybe a 50-100 or so exp per battle (if that) which makes training just a pain in the butt.

 

[Krysi]

I was perfectly fine with my Bellsprout, it went through Misty's team without a hinch....

The point of this topic is not to brag about how well you managed yourself, it's how to keep a majority newbies from ragequitting at the beginning of the game.

As long as you have access to the clearing you can nab a good grass type to carry you through. But the biggest issue I see is the unnecessarily steep exp curve at low levels. You're going to need a couple thousand exp just to level up but at the same time you're only getting maybe a 50-100 or so exp per battle (if that) which makes training just a pain in the butt.

I agree with this, I think it's probably the main problem starting out. The grindfest is a major pain, very unappealing to newcomers. I've witnessed quite a few people quit because they kept losing to the early gym leaders and didn't feel like putting in a bunch of time grinding.

On my alternate account (this account), I've evolved my Nidorina into Chuck Norris and took Misty down with a flick. Stacked up a little more than 40 hours during the grindfest. Overleveled so much for Misty I knocked down Surge without as much as a scratch. Then after that my client froze in a NPC battle because I switched Pokemon too fast so I just logged off after that. \o/

That's quite a interesting situation by the way. When you switch before the NPC sprite leaves the screen and you try to battle, it'll still think you're battling with the first Pokemon in your party even if it's dead. Apparently I lost 20 Pokedollars for trying to battle with a dead bird even though Nidoking was supposedly out. :l

 

[Jinji]

To be fair though, Surge is a complete weakling. Always has been - I can recount my own experiences battling him five years ago; and it seems very little has changed. He offers no challenge for an average-levelled team at that point in the game - and therein lies the problem.

While I can neither recall the battle I performed with Misty back then, nor do I know how I would test it today, the overlying point you're making here is one that rings home with me. The difficulty ramp of PWO's gyms has never really been very solid in my view; and it's definitely something that requires addressing.

 

[Orean]

That's quite a interesting situation by the way. When you switch before the NPC sprite leaves the screen and you try to battle, it'll still think you're battling with the first Pokemon in your party even if it's dead. Apparently I lost 20 Pokedollars for trying to battle with a dead bird even though Nidoking was supposedly out. :l

As a sidenote, this is due to an asynchronous problem on the client-server communication: the client does not wait until the battle script, on the server's end, finishes its turn before the client attempts to switch the Pokemon (when a user attempts to switch in a new Pokemon on their end). It's a client-server synchronization problem in a nutshell, and will (more obviously) require a new client to fix, but the pokemoney penalization has been intended to remain as a repercussion for doing so meanwhile.

More on-topic: Is Butterfree's rarity in the Viridian Forest, which is required to access the Clearing, considered a problem (more minor than the experience system itself, of course; I'll touch on that in a bit) in advancing beyond the first few gyms?

Going off feedback reported by various users in my time here, it can be understood that while users are easily capable of trouncing over Brock, even when deploying a low-level Bellsprout/Oddish, they're stuck between a rock and a hard place in trying to obtain those Pokemon; it requires that they either train a Caterpie through the evolutionary chain (requiring them to train through the opinionatedly arduous leveling system), or to encounter a fully-evolved Butterfree in the forest; both can be more time-consuming than some may like in the earlier stages of the game.

While we (the staff) agree that the leveling system in itself is another aspect that needs to be re-examined, and reformulated accordingly, that's currently precluded without a new client to work with. Nonetheless, we still intend to work what we're able to in order to recitfy the problem, and the spawn-reassment project — as has been already mentioned — is a needed avenue that we'd like to play its own part in improving it—part of the project will include revamping the levels, in addition to the Pokemon spawns that inhabit the areas (to help make players more well-equipped).

 

[Merse]

You can't avoid grinding. If you don't have to grind before Brock or Misty, you'll have to do it later, when you meet Janine, Sabrina, Blaine or Blue. And there you'll have to train much more.
Grinding before you fight Brock can make you pass easily till Sabrina, then you already have access to the Union Room, or you have to do only very little grinding to reach Blue. There you'll need to grind a little bit more, but when you pass Blue you can make it to Chuck within an afternoon. The other advantage of grinding before Brock is that it teaches you the mechanics of PWO. You learn how grinding and quests work, you learn that this is an MMO, and most importantly: you learn to use your head and be prepared for a battle! In the original games all you had to do is throw your Charmander at Brock's Geodude and soon it gained enough XP to beat Onix. Here you have to plan your strategy, you have to learn that not only Water types are effective against Brock. I seriously say, I think it's a shame that there is no such learning cycle in Jotho!
Yes, grinding could be tedious, but that could be solved by slightly increasing the level of the Pokes behind the old lady. Or add some higher level Metapods and Kakunas That would solve the annoying level issue of Caterpie and would give some nice XP. We don't need any fancy new types to become common just to make it super easy for anyone to pass Brock and Misty.

 

[Krysi]

You can't avoid grinding.

Well that's just obvious, it's an MMO after all. I don't think you're understanding the point here though, most MMO games start out rather simple, then become more difficult as you move along...somehow PWO does the exact opposite of that and well...it's not appealing to new players at all. Think like a newbie, like someone who has never played this game before, not like a experienced player or veteran. It's basically as Jinji put it in his post.

Yes, grinding could be tedious, but that could be solved by slightly increasing the level of the Pokes behind the old lady. Or add some higher level Metapods and Kakunas That would solve the annoying level issue of Caterpie and would give some nice XP. We don't need any fancy new types to become common just to make it super easy for anyone to pass Brock and Misty.

Personally, I agree. I only listed simple solutions in my first post after all. It's not like I was saying they were the only possible options.

 

[Merse]

The XP formula could be slightly different indeed, giving a bit more XP if you KO low level wild Pokes.

 

[Isguros]

I was perfectly fine with my Bellsprout, it went through Misty's team without a hinch....

The point of this topic is not to brag about how well you managed yourself, it's how to keep a majority newbies from ragequitting at the beginning of the game.

It's quite obvious that the point for this Topic is to whine about losing to Misty. I can see it may upset you that there are people that didn't have much trouble battling Misty, but doesn't that just proves you didn't put enough effort in training your pokemon?

 

[Jinji]

Isgu, your accusation makes no sense, given the OP already said she BEAT Misty after extensive overlevelling and never ONCE claimed to have lost.