Solving the problem of pokemon old ivs - Resolvendo o problema dos pokemons old ivs

[Jobey]

or just make old iv shinies get a mark and they are indeed non-tradeable and cant be used for battle.. just for collection ;p

 
That makes too much sense, the staff will never go for it XD

 

[Jinji]

or just make old iv shinies get a mark and they are indeed non-tradeable and cant be used for battle.. just for collection ;p

To be honest, I've always believed Shiny Pokémon are a collectors item anyway - they should never have been the competition-destroyer they became here. That's just my personal opinion, however.

 

[Nyx~]

mhmm, something has to happen but.. however deleting old iv shinies wont solve the problem cause deleting them will cause older players to loose their stuff they worked for so hard. so thats unreasonable (suggestions from other ppl) but if they become non-trade/battle and get a mark with them. i'd be fine with it.. =x ^.^

 

[Rigaudon]

Ok, I can promise you that if we literally delete Pokemon off of people's accounts without compensation, I will quit and/or demote myself back to "Staff Secretary." Not PRM. Staff Secretary. I will make this my forum signature if that's the only way to get this point across.

 

[Tsubaru]

[font=Tahoma, sans-serif]What are the pros/cons of ability capsules in the Battle Tower?[/font]


[font=Tahoma, sans-serif]Pros: availability, everyone can get their hands on these “capsules”[/font]
[font=Tahoma, sans-serif]You can create ur favorite battle pokemon by simply changing nature etc, so u just need to hunt for a good IV pkm. That’s not a problem, since we all hunt for “good” pokemon. T5 pokemon would benefit the most of it since they are so damn rare and most of the time u catch bad iv ones.[/font]
[font=Tahoma, sans-serif]Cons: it makes hunting a little bit uneccesary if u can simply change all ur pkm.[/font]
[font=Tahoma, sans-serif]A reasonable capsule price should be 150 or 200 bp points, so u still hunt for ur perfect T1-T3 and using capsules for rare ones only (t4-T5).[/font]
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[font=Tahoma, sans-serif]What are the pros/cons of locking 28+ IV pokemon out of a breeding process?[/font]

[font=Tahoma, sans-serif]Pros: players cant create their perfect Pokémon, so u still need to catch one. Players still have their 28+ ivs shiny and can use them for battle[/font]
[font=Tahoma, sans-serif]Cons: shiny pokemon caught before 2014 (?) are useless for breeding. You still face op shinys in battles[/font]
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[font=Tahoma, sans-serif]For people talking about refunds, what would be a fair compensation that WOULDN'T unbalance the game?[/font]

[font=Tahoma, sans-serif]This depends on the player. Someone said they got old shiny pkm from players who left and they keep the pkm to remember them.[/font]
[font=Tahoma, sans-serif]You cant replace those pkm with money memberships or any items. [/font]
[font=Tahoma, sans-serif]Other ppl bought a lets say a shiny sala for 20m a few years ago, now its worth 200m (dunno) since economy is a funny thing, Give those players 20m or 200m? [/font]
[font=Tahoma, sans-serif]Give them 20m they will cry bc the pkm lost its value, give them 200m and the economy would suffer even more. More ingame money means that our money isn’t worth much.[/font]
[font=Tahoma, sans-serif]I cant think of any compensation that wouldn’t unbalance the game.[/font]
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[font=Tahoma, sans-serif]What's up with regular Pokemon that happen to have good IVs and an important 32 IV, like speed?[/font]

[font=Tahoma, sans-serif]Decrease their speed to 31.[/font]
[font=Tahoma, sans-serif]Players: No, I paid 20m for it I will quit…[/font]
[font=Tahoma, sans-serif]Ya deal with it 32ivs are a design problem a bug that should be erased.[/font]

[font=Tahoma, sans-serif]My old account I had from 2008 to 2012 had a lot of shinys and a lot s gyara with multiply 32 ivs. I hated these pkm and were rly disappointed when I caught one, bc I couldn’t use them in pvp, bc I didn’t want to fight against those pkm, so I didint use them myself too.[/font]
[font=Tahoma, sans-serif]This account got deleted due to inactivity and iam happy I didn’t recover it =)[/font]
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[font=Tahoma, sans-serif]How would a reroll work in a fair manner, if that's even possible?[/font]

[font=Tahoma, sans-serif]There is no fair manner, since rerolling them from 28+ to 20-31 (random) could decrease its value or increase it, but old shinys could still be used for breeding or capsules, and players still have their pokemon to remember other players. Only its ivs are changing so they are not the same but its OT didn’t changed and also their look didn’t.[/font]

 

[Mumetufu]

Hi. Well, I didn't know my shinies are problematic. I do now It seems all about hatching eggs so don't implement that in game (?) or make created pokemon ivs totally random with slightly higher chance of being shiny considering "parents". Good idea of nature capsules. I'm not sure what you have said about it cause there is a lot to read in this topic and I'm lazy. If they will be as item to give to poke I'm hoping for the reasonable battle points price. If they will be like spots to put poke and wait there are litle more to have in mind: membership, game time to nature change, original trainer; these might give a little discount. Also caught date might matter (pokes before nature implementation might be cheaper to add one or in general pokes with neutral nature). Rerolling seems too much. Btw you can still catch "old ivs" shiny poke (which was one of the points made in favour when ivs of S were reduced) I hope it wasn't all mambojambo. See you in game.

 

[Electrofreak]

2009 player here to help give you the perspective of someone from the extremely wealthy side of things. This is not an ego trip, I'm just hoping it might clarify some issues.

First of all, I agree with Mati on most of what he said.  You can't just go "screw the old players!" because a bunch of people are sad at the situation. Keep in mind new players are coming to a game that is a LOT more stable. I lost 2.4 billion pure pokedollars back in 2010 or so.  Old players have more stuff, yes, but don't be so harsh as to forget that we had to deal with the same crap, but worse, and for a longer period of time.  Just as an example, shinies used to have a 20% boost compared to nonshinies. This meant pokemon got DOUBLE the stats natures give, JUST BY BEING SHINY.  The only reason nonshinies could even compete then was due to the nature of having no switching then. You could just place a counter.

I'm not saying people aren't entitled to their opinion, but I'm saying keep things in perspective. You aren't dealing with robots with no experience here.

Another thing to keep in mind honestly.  The difference between old and new shinies in terms of damage calculation is less than 2% in most cases.  Most times it ever goes higher is when you are dealing with super effective damage on lower base stat pokemon.  IE: physical dark hit vs  something like alakazam.  Old iv shinies, compared to new, AREN'T that broken.  The random fluctuations in damage outputs created within the game's system has more variation than the difference between 20 and 28 iv. This is objective math.  Go to the smogon damage calc and check it yourself.

The only stat that functions differently is speed. Every point matters for that. Now for stuff like 32 ivs in this, it has more of an effect. I'll address that below. Keep in mind however that the difference in speed ONLY MATTERS, when vs something of the same speed tier, nature (when implemented), AND same EV spread.  Most of these situations however are NOT ADVISABLE to stay in, and SOMEONE will switch.  Example: Metagross vs Cloyster.  Who in their right mind would allow a cloyster to take a meteor mash from a metagross, especially shell smash variants? No one smart. They would swap into something to deal with the metagross better. (I'm looking at you weezing/slowbro/bulky starmie/etc.)

I hate to say it but most of this "old iv shinies are OP!" stuff is on paper, not in actual combat. Do I min-max the stuff I own? Oh yes I do, because I can afford it as a player. The majority of my time on PWO I used epics and common shinies. Back in the day I used tropius to counter bulky waters since i didn't have a good jolteon or a shiny exeggutor. On the flipside however, I used a shiny togekiss with 9 defense ivs for MONTHS.  Why?  Because it STILL WORKED.  Player skill determines the majority of what happens in a battle, not ivs.   8 ivs between old and new is not what determines a match the majority of the time. It is not what determines a KO or not most of the time. A bad switch, or a bad prediction does far more to hurt you than those 8 ivs. The argument should not be, does it EVER effect things, but the complaint seems to come from an understanding that it is a deciding factor OFTEN. This is objectively false due to the nature of how the game is programmed.

Even still, the pokemon that HAVE 32 speed, aren't problem pokemon by and large as far as shinies go.

No 32 speed variants exist for the below OLD shinies (and more, but I am only listing metagame relevant pokemon off the top of my head):

gengar / starmie / tyranitar / salamence /dragonite /metagross / jolteon / weavile / scizor / mamoswine / arcanine / alakazam / espeon / heracross / honchkrow / starters / etc.

No max speed variants exist for the below OLD shinies (again, more but blah blah off top of head):
tyranitar (only one is banned), salamence (never existed),  dragonite (never existed), Weavile (There might be one somewhere but inactive as far as im aware), heracross (only one banned), Starters

Notice how the higher a rarity goes you don't even get max speeds anymore? (Some of them only 1 exist and inactive.)  Some of those pokemon NEED max speed. So the ironic part is running an old iv shiny salamence actually hinders you in some situations, while helping in others. It isn't just a one way street.  Choice scarf tyranitar needs max speed to outrun a max speed starmie to thunder punch it in the mouth before you get scalded.

More on 32 speed:
32 speed pokemon hardly exist, mostly inactive.  The ones who even have 32 speed only have extreme instances where it is relevant.  Kingdra for instance has the same base speed as heracross, and nothing else really hits that speed. It only matters in kingdra vs kingdra or kingdra vs heracross.  Heracross is scarfed 80% of the time so doesn't matter.  Kingdra vs kingdra, the speed only matters if you both lead with it and try to duke it out. 

Gyarados, base speed 81, ties nothing else relevant for speed. It only matters in gyarados vs gyarados matchups, again only mattering if you lead with it and have same ev spreads. Bulky gyarados is a thing, so you might not even need to rely on the speed for that if you run 252 in yours.

Only 1 crobat exists that I'm aware of and it's inactive.

You get the point.


It isn't as one sided as people think it is. There isn't even an old iv shiny for every pokemon that has been in the game for ages. Not to mention that in most cases when a person has a really rare shiny, they don't have tons of other stuff too.  Let's also remember that most of the people with these things are collectors who have NO IDEA how to battle properly.  I could name off a handful of people right now that haven't even EV trained their expensive shinies but I don't wish to point fingers in what could seem to be a malicious manner. (If you are one of those people, please do not take offense. I was just saying you aren't active in the battling community to even be one of the ones complained about.)

So we have an objective collective case of the following:
1. Old iv is not obscenely stronger than new iv.
2.It is really hard to find someone who meets the criteria of  1. informed battler, 2. arsenal of old METAGAME RELEVANT shinies 3. actively uses them vs new players.
3. Given 1 and 2, it is really hard to make the argument that old players win because of ivs on a large scale.

So the question becomes, why should people who have been loyal to the game be screwed because of PERCEPTION, and not reality?

28 iv sp atk with 252 ev investment gengar focus blast vs 252hp/252spdef umbreon

20 iv sp atk with 252 ev investment gengar focus blast vs 252hp/252spdef umbreon

So what we have here is 4.7% chance to 2hko changed to 1.2%.  This is marginal at best. Stealth rock and leftovers recovery effect the math more than that. The swing of damage in the possible damage outputs section is 8% roughly. That is 8x more than the difference in damage because of ivs, and roughly 2.5x the difference between the 2hko chance change percentage.


I know most of you won't actually care. I know most of you "feel" you are right. I'm not here to argue with emotions and perception. I am here to deal with facts, objective facts.  If a tree falls in the woods and you didn't know about it, it still fell in the woods.



tl;dr 
Old ivs arent why people lose, skill and knowledge in team composition and execution are.
A lot of the old and rare shinies are in the hands of inactive players or non-battlers that dont effect you anyway.
mathmathmathmathmath did i mention math?


Disclaimer: The "this doesn't exist" section is not objective nor intended to be. This is just coming from years of being in trade and guild xats and seeing things pass hands. There is always the possibility that one random guy who never talks to anyone or posts anything has something no one knows about. However for the purpose of the above, that person isn't part of the problem causing people distress over old ivs in battle.

 

[HitmonFonty]

...breeding creates the perfect Pokémon, with 30-31 ivs to bring about the desired hidden power and perfect nature and ability, so old ivs would naturally be extinguished, because many non-shinies pokémons would end up with these same ivs

There are a few misconceptions in this post but I can't keep up with them all, and even if I could as we keep saying nothing has been decided for sure so it would be pointless to try. However the comment above is one I can debunk here and now. Whatever PWO comes up with regarding breeding it will not include raising IVs. So basically what you have now or catch in future is/are the IVs that the pokemon will keep forever. If that wasn't the case then there would be no need to hunt, only breed- since there are enough pokemon in the game already to feed a breeding system based on the handheld versions.

We won't let that happen, hunting pokemon will always be a major part of PWO.

 

[Electrofreak]

...breeding creates the perfect Pokémon, with 30-31 ivs to bring about the desired hidden power and perfect nature and ability, so old ivs would naturally be extinguished, because many non-shinies pokémons would end up with these same ivs

There are a few misconceptions in this post but I can't keep up with them all, and even if I could as we keep saying nothing has been decided for sure so it would be pointless to try. However the comment above is one I can debunk here and now. Whatever PWO comes up with regarding breeding it will not include raising IVs. So basically what you have now or catch in future is/are the IVs that the pokemon will keep forever. If that wasn't the case then there would be no need to hunt, only breed- since there are enough pokemon in the game already to feed a breeding system based on the handheld versions.

We won't let that happen, hunting pokemon will always be a major part of PWO.

Thank you for addressing this. Some people in game also think you guys are potentially going to add a breeding system that adds new pokemon in the game.  I explain that you won't because if we were allowed to breed then hunting and rarity would become obsolete, and any system made to be balanced would take far too much effort to actually implement in terms of spawns. 

I know it is out of the norm, but given the huge response to this topic and the quiet nature of what is actually going on, it might be in order to make a tentative sticky thread with the things staff will not do for sure. What are your thoughts on this?

Example:

1. We will not make breeding increase ivs.
2. We will not make breeding a system that undermines hunting or the rarity of individual species.
etc.

The reason I suggest this is that in this void of information, people tend to easily panic and run around like chickens with their heads cut off. This might help ground some people at least in SOME thinking of what is going on, but not enough to abuse. Feel free to tweak the idea or what type of information could be added to the sticky, but I do think SOME form of staff communication permanently stickied would help reduce the amount of fear within the playerbase.

 

[Jobey]

mati-leo is right, old shinies are gotten by many effort in the game in the old times of pwo....

ye dont forget the good old times where corrupted staff members floated the market with shinys,
or when ppl used the ingame auction house to triple their money and pokemon by abusing bugs.
The old pwo days were a mess and am glad they are over =)

Deleting old iv shinys is also a solution but relloing their ivs is a better way since u dont lose ur pokemon only its value if ur unlucky.

We could actually change every pokemon gender to male so they become useless for breeding if u change the way to carry over ivs to female only.
After that u have to make them unable to use nature capsules.
This way old shinys will be the same now and forever.


Personally i think that nothing will be done about it, so whenever breeding/nature is a thing in Pwo alot of players (myself included) will be smashing pvp with perfect pokemon

So far not a single thing you have posted has made any sense.
Just being honest and hope I'm not being rude, but your ideas are really messing up ppl with old IVs big time.

---

Indeed the problem is not the old ivs so stop whining on and on about it... nuff said-_-  :dodgy:

Well said and straight to the point XD

 

[Jobey]

It has just dawned on me that we all are really talking about this. I mean really, come on, to me this whole discussion is just simply a waste of time. Leave the Pokemon the way they are and have the staff to focus on actually doing something that actually matters. Something like I don't know, maybe releasing new content or at least getting started on it? Players quit complaining about old IVs, staff quit complaining about old IVs. Whats done is done, why continue to waste time on such minor matters as "Oh no it has all IVS 28+ the whole world is in trouble." Also, considering how much people get screwed with IVs on token store shinnies, I say old IVS should be of no concern. To me if an shiny IV change should be made it should be in token store but even that is of utterly no importance. Enjoy the game, play the game, look to the future of the game, and quit trying to change stuff in the past that in the long run doesn't even matter. Anyway everyone best wishes of fun and enjoyment and luck for you all.

 

[HitmonFonty]

It has just dawned on me that we all are really talking about this. I mean really, come on, to me this whole discussion is just simply a waste of time. Leave the Pokemon the way they are and have the staff to focus on actually doing something that actually matters. Something like I don't know, maybe releasing new content or at least getting started on it? Players quit complaining about old IVs, staff quit complaining about old IVs. Whats done is done, why continue to waste time on such minor matters as "Oh no it has all IVS 28+ the whole world is in trouble." Also, considering how much people get screwed with IVs on token store shinnies, I say old IVS should be of no concern. To me if an shiny IV change should be made it should be in token store but even that is of utterly no importance. Enjoy the game, play the game, look to the future of the game, and quit trying to change stuff in the past that in the long run doesn't even matter. Anyway everyone best wishes of fun and enjoyment and luck for you all.

This is an important issue to many so it's not wasted time discussing it. And even though this has been gone over many times before there are new players and thoughts here and we will always follow such discussions and consider the points brought up. You are right in that we shouldn't waste time on things that don't drive us towards the future, but the issues brought up here do need to be considered before implementing a permanent system of breeding/abilities/natures etc. When the time comes to build that system we will be ready to do it right because it has been well considered beforehand, and these discussions are part of that preparation even if they do seem confused and disjointed at the time.

 

[Jobey]

It has just dawned on me that we all are really talking about this. I mean really, come on, to me this whole discussion is just simply a waste of time. Leave the Pokemon the way they are and have the staff to focus on actually doing something that actually matters. Something like I don't know, maybe releasing new content or at least getting started on it? Players quit complaining about old IVs, staff quit complaining about old IVs. Whats done is done, why continue to waste time on such minor matters as "Oh no it has all IVS 28+ the whole world is in trouble." Also, considering how much people get screwed with IVs on token store shinnies, I say old IVS should be of no concern. To me if an shiny IV change should be made it should be in token store but even that is of utterly no importance. Enjoy the game, play the game, look to the future of the game, and quit trying to change stuff in the past that in the long run doesn't even matter. Anyway everyone best wishes of fun and enjoyment and luck for you all.

This is an important issue to many so it's not wasted time discussing it. And even though this has been gone over many times before there are new players and thoughts here and we will always follow such discussions and consider the points brought up. You are right in that we shouldn't waste time on things that don't drive us towards the future, but the issues brought up here do need to be considered before implementing a permanent system of breeding/abilities/natures etc. When the time comes to build that system we will be ready to do it right because it has been well considered beforehand, and these discussions are part of that preparation even if they do seem confused and disjointed at the time.

That's a very fine and fair point, but another thing though, if we implement a breeding system wouldn't that eventually lead to pokes having old IVs anyway? That's why, just like I don't think the old IVs should be messed with, I don't think a breeding system should be implemented, it will eventually lead to being the same complaint in the long run. Also, lets face it this game is a bout battling gyms and hunting better IV pokes. If we implement a breeding system, that will ruin the whole point of hunting, and considering the time and effort it takes to release new maps and other content, I think if you take away the need for hunting that it may really hurt the player population because they will have nothing to do if they can just breed pokes to get the IVs they want. Especially considering that with this being an mmo you wont even have to hunt good pokes for breeding, because why do that when you can just borrow from somebody else and give it back? BTW I appreciate you actually taking the time to reply to these comments.

 

[HitmonFonty]

That's a very fine and fair point, but another thing though, if we implement a breeding system wouldn't that eventually lead to pokes having old IVs anyway? That's why, just like I don't think the old IVs should be messed with,  I don't think a breeding system should be implemented, it will eventually lead to being the same complaint in the long run. Also, lets face it this game is a bout battling gyms and hunting better IV pokes. If we implement a breeding system, that will ruin the whole point of hunting, and considering the time and effort it takes to release new maps and other content, I think if you take away the need for hunting that it may really hurt the player population because they will have nothing to do if they can just breed pokes to get the IVs they want. Especially considering that with this being an mmo you wont even have to hunt good pokes for breeding, because why do that when you can just borrow from somebody else and give it back? BTW I appreciate you actually taking the time to reply to these comments.

Well you have just highlighted why long posts like this can be problematic, sometimes important comments are missed.

...breeding creates the perfect Pokémon, with 30-31 ivs to bring about the desired hidden power and perfect nature and ability, so old ivs would naturally be extinguished, because many non-shinies pokémons would end up with these same ivs

There are a few misconceptions in this post but I can't keep up with them all, and even if I could as we keep saying nothing has been decided for sure so it would be pointless to try. However the comment above is one I can debunk here and now. Whatever PWO comes up with regarding breeding it will not include raising IVs. So basically what you have now or catch in future is/are the IVs that the pokemon will keep forever. If that wasn't the case then there would be no need to hunt, only breed- since there are enough pokemon in the game already to feed a breeding system based on the handheld versions.

We won't let that happen, hunting pokemon will always be a major part of PWO.

 

[Nyx~]

mhmm, so Electrofreak has a fair point old ivs and new ivs arent that much of a difference! and "IF" old ivs get replaced how would that happen in your opinion HitmonFonty? im not asking for an answer just asking how it might be a fair solution to both old and new players =x and cause either way a game with 100% happy ppl...i've never experienced that before there are always issues/complains which are good to help the game improve but i dont think this matters much after the calculations, so like i said maybe it's an option to give old iv shinies a Collection Mark so they cant be used in battles and cant be traded.. since most of the ppl are collectors! (might be wrong)  :blush: 

 

[Jobey]

That's a very fine and fair point, but another thing though, if we implement a breeding system wouldn't that eventually lead to pokes having old IVs anyway? That's why, just like I don't think the old IVs should be messed with,  I don't think a breeding system should be implemented, it will eventually lead to being the same complaint in the long run. Also, lets face it this game is a bout battling gyms and hunting better IV pokes. If we implement a breeding system, that will ruin the whole point of hunting, and considering the time and effort it takes to release new maps and other content, I think if you take away the need for hunting that it may really hurt the player population because they will have nothing to do if they can just breed pokes to get the IVs they want. Especially considering that with this being an mmo you wont even have to hunt good pokes for breeding, because why do that when you can just borrow from somebody else and give it back? BTW I appreciate you actually taking the time to reply to these comments.

Well you have just highlighted why long posts like this can be problematic, sometimes important comments are missed.

...breeding creates the perfect Pokémon, with 30-31 ivs to bring about the desired hidden power and perfect nature and ability, so old ivs would naturally be extinguished, because many non-shinies pokémons would end up with these same ivs

There are a few misconceptions in this post but I can't keep up with them all, and even if I could as we keep saying nothing has been decided for sure so it would be pointless to try. However the comment above is one I can debunk here and now. Whatever PWO comes up with regarding breeding it will not include raising IVs. So basically what you have now or catch in future is/are the IVs that the pokemon will keep forever. If that wasn't the case then there would be no need to hunt, only breed- since there are enough pokemon in the game already to feed a breeding system based on the handheld versions.

We won't let that happen, hunting pokemon will always be a major part of PWO.

Ok, so if you plan to have a breeding system that doesn't have increased IVs then why is the old IVs such an issue? Look I'm a relatively new player, only been here 7 months but I don't see why people think Old IVs are so problematic. Only problem I've seen is new players getting upset or jealous of others with Old IVs, but these same players also complain about older players having too much money. Everybody wants to start off having handed to them what all these other players have worked for. So you re-roll IVs to make it more fair, or delete the poke all together then are you going to do the same with players that have too much money? I say leave the old IVs alone, implement a breeding system that bans the use of shinnies, also people want to complain about the old IVs being too powerful should simply call for "No Old Clause". This to me like I said in an earlier post is such a minor problem, I don't see what the big deal is. Again, I appreciate you taking the time to reply and trying to clarify things.

---

mhmm, so ElectroCharge has a fair point old ivs and new ivs arent that much of a difference! and "IF" old ivs get replaced how would that happen in your opinion HitmonFonty? im not asking for an answer just asking how it might be a fair solution to both old and new players =x and cause either way a game with 100% happy ppl...i've never experienced that before there are always issues/complains which are good to help the game improve but i dont think this matters much after the calculations, so like i said maybe it's an option to give old iv shinies a Collection Mark so they cant be used in battles and cant be traded.. since most of the ppl are collectors! (might be wrong)  :blush: 

Again, another simple solution that makes me wonder why people are making such a big deal about something so minor.

 

[Rigaudon]

Ok, so if you plan to have a breeding system that doesn't have increased IVs then why is the old IVs such an issue

You missed my post on page 2 that explains this in depth, but I'll add onto it.

To be honest it's kind of nuanced and hard to explain, easiest to understand if you've either studied MMOs or worked with MMOs in the past that have a global economy.

Having guaranteed PvP-ready Pokemon that are economically common on a global scale but purely luck-based on an individual scale crowds out other options that are reasonably obtained through hard work. The transition of a midgame player from 16 badges to PvP ladder was even wonkier than it is now, because most people could just buy cheap (for the time) 28+ IV Pokemon like Quagsire/Slowbro and be PvP ready.

There was NO reason to use or hunt for normal epic Pokemon unless you were beyond dirt poor or wanted to be different from everyone else, cutting out an entire part of PvE gameplay/hunting. With 28+ IVs now fairly rare to get, hunting for great-IV Pokemon that are more common is now much more worthwhile...because you can't spend 50k and get a nearly perfect Machamp. There is now middle ground where previously there was none; that middle ground is important from an economic and gameplay perspective.

That example Machamp isn't exactly broken in battle, as shown above by Electro. But it and thousands more like it simply existed as an "easy button" for PvP. This limited PWO's gameplay potential, limited PWO's economy, and limited PWO's longevity.

The primary remaining unfairness is only within the economic gaps between players who joined when 28+ IV pokemon were given away for scraps (like shiny tentas) who can now turn around and sell them for millions. But that's a different beast all-together, because if we talk about that, we're discussing things that are essentially collector's items and not PvP balance. When we, as staff, widened the shiny IV range, we essentially exchanged a feature that limited gameplay potential/limited new player PvP transition and in return the now-vet player's economic viability inflated. This rough economic trade-off has already mostly played out in all but the most elite of market tiers.

 

[Electrofreak]

mhmm, so Electrofreak has a fair point old ivs and new ivs arent that much of a difference! and "IF" old ivs get replaced how would that happen in your opinion HitmonFonty? im not asking for an answer just asking how it might be a fair solution to both old and new players =x and cause either way a game with 100% happy ppl...i've never experienced that before there are always issues/complains which are good to help the game improve but i dont think this matters much after the calculations, so like i said maybe it's an option to give old iv shinies a Collection Mark so they cant be used in battles and cant be traded.. since most of the ppl are collectors! (might be wrong)  :blush: 

There are quite a few wealthy battlers, including myself, but a lot of us just don't see the point in battling until we have a way to deal with the tank meta consistently. That is a whole other discussion entirely however.

Making old iv shinies unable to battle falls under the same error as a reroll. I paid an obscene amount of in-game currency or other pokemon to get that 2% on some of the things I have.  The problem is that people who don't do this feel they have the right to take that away.


About, lets say 5-8 months ago, I traded about 1.5 billion PD worth of pokemon (at that time) for an old iv shiny tyranitar.  Around this same time give or take a few months, a shiny new iv tyranitar sold, from what I can remember, about 350-400m?  Why should I have my tyranitar rerolled/locked?  Now just to be clear, I know you didn't mean that in a negative way towards anyone or with any intent to harm,  but I am just using this as an example to point out why this whole discussion is rather silly as it is currently framed.

The problem people have is the claim they are unable to reach higher levels of the market economically. The problem never was old vs new ivs, but rather they felt that old ivs are now an impossible goal and that they cannot reach them, while old players had it easier to get those same things. This is the point of contention, not old ivs in battle, not stats, not "THEY ARE SO OP!!", but rather the economic factor.  However there were some pokemon that were ALWAYS in upper brackets of the market and nearly impossible to get. Now the situation is that more are in that bracket than before.

 

[Electrofreak]

I'm going to dedicate a post to this because I wanted to keep the other one moreso as a response to Nyx.


Alright, so let's just think for a moment. The problem isn't the fact that old ivs exist, the problem is that many players have the thoughts of "I can't get them." Now this is where it gets murky and I think a discussion is worthwhile. Let me just preface this to say that tanky pokemon are hardly effected by old vs new. I personally use a new iv shiny slowbro because it was close enough to ivs needed and it was already max level as opposed to my old iv slowbro.

Let us just go ahead and throw tanky pokemon out of this equation, and instead focus on speed, because again this point is about economics as the battle difference was shown to be moot except for the point of speed.

A good and fair concession is that new players have a much harder time finding a max speed shiny as opposed to before. In the past, when old ivs were the standard and scizor wasn't as good as it is now, a shiny scizor sold for 120m roughly if it had 30 ivs in speed or less.  A max speed one however sold for 180-200m on average. None of the other stats mattered in differentiation nearly as much, but that 1 speed point added 60-80m to a pokemon. A 32 iv speed one never existed, but just as an example to how another point inflates, at one point I have received offers around 130m for a shiny kingdra with 32 speed when it was in its prime as a battler. That is a far cry from the 4m a regular old iv one sold for at the time.

Last year: 
Shiny arca old 40~m (sold one for this price)
Shiny arca old max speed 125m (paid it myself)
(Disclaimer: This all happened prior to the deflation hitting the server, after which a lot of pokemon have left the market entirely outside of pokemon-only trades.)

So the question, as said before, isn't about general stats, or even about most pokemon. The question is mostly aimed towards sweepers which always carried more value the higher their speeds went and towards the perceived difference in value between old and new pokemon.


So the question becomes, "How does a new player get max speed shinies in the same way old players did?" The answer from staff, based on game design, is "They don't."  Let me clarify this to mean that they intentionally nerfed it to remove the necessity of shinies in the battling metagame.  A new IV shiny can still be used with great effectiveness and most people wouldn't even notice the difference outside of very rare matchup circumstances. However a non-shiny with max speed and generally higher stats can perform just as well as that shiny now too and at a much lower price point.

Ex: Fadoka has a 4x 31 non-shiny dragonite. He tried to sell it and yet couldn't even get offers of 200m as far as I was aware. However a shiny dragonite with worse stats can sell for more easily. 

This inherently creates a situation where new players feel they were given a short hand. I understand this entirely. Please do not think for one second I do not care about that. This is why I am bringing the discussion here and away from the IVs, because this is where the pain point really is. This is where the hurt resides in the majority of those who feel this sting. I understand, and I do care.  However, the reality of this is that it would be the same as saying it is unfair that they did not get the chance to invest in the early US stock market because they were not born yet. While there is truth in that there is a missed opportunity, you also missed out on a lot of the risk. So many decisions were made back then without any reason at all. People lost their stuff and most weren't compensated hardly ever.  Bugs rolled back player data all the time. The list goes on. Just like how I desire to have somehow invested in big oil a century ago, I also manage to not know the struggle of the great depression.

I just hate to say it but it really boils down to a person in the real world saying "It wasn't fair they invested in Walmart decades before I was born, so their stock should be taken and replaced with something else instead."  It is unfair, inconsiderate of the risks they took throughout those early years, undermines their other economic choices based on what they have, is unethical to a high degree, and solves nothing.  There is always going to be an upper class that seems impossible to reach.

To elaborate, if my max speed shiny rerolls to lower speed, I need another one. I am not given something equivalent back. This means that the resources I spent to purchase something after I acquired that first pokemon are now resources I can no longer spend to buy what I need back, assuming it is even in the market at all. You also cannot assume that there is equivalency in what 1m means now as opposed to what 1m meant even a year ago. Inflation/deflation effect the market a lot more than people realize and prices take forever to adjust. 


Another thing I notice is that there are a lot of players who just log on to show off. I disagree with this behavior. Most of you know I only link things when asked and even then sometimes I deny the request. Not everyone wants to keep their wealth just to flaunt it and make new players feel bad. Dragon16 hardly links anything besides what he trades. Fadoka doesn't spam link his stuff. Battlers tend to want to keep their IVs private so people can't make mental notes of what hidden powers or speed IVs our stuff has.


So please, this rhetoric about "you only care about yourself" is just an uncharitable stab to try and divide people. I have been told this so many times when a lot of my time in game is spent answering questions or helping with EV spreads and team compositions for new players. The other time is spent battling or yelling "moo" or "I'm batman!" It gets very tiring when people who have no idea what I've done or what I am actually like just try to throw a blanket statement at me rather than engage what I'm saying. I have been told this one too many times.  If I didn't care I wouldn't be here after 8 years.

---

Just thought of a way to simplify it. One way to sum up the whole ordeal is "In what way could we create value for new players in a meaningful way, so that they can reach their in-game goals?" At the end of the day this is basically what is wanted right?

 

[HitmonFonty]

I don't think it's complicated at all why some players at least don't like the old/new shiny IV difference. No matter how long you hunt now you can't replicate what we (I'm an old player with tons of old IV shinies) got back then.

We did it, they can't and it was awesome. Back then there was no need to farm pokemon that weren't shiny for an epic, you just hunted shinies and that was it- at least for common and slightly less common pokemon. Nowadays you have to do both- fill your boxes with growlithes looking for an epic one and still hoping the shiny is worth keeping.

Now the chances of getting a truly epic- even all above 25s shiny is a lot less likely, and 28+ is probably as hard again as it was to find the shiny itself. I'm sure the maths wizzes can correct me on that.

So while I understand why it was needed I can clearly see why it was also seen as completely unfair by some. Players also argue that it would be unfair to change what they paid exorbitant amounts of money for, and sure it would be.. Or would it? It was also argued in this post that the game was considered broken for example with the 32 IV pokemon, so why should they expect those pokemon to remain like that forever? Going back further there was also change from +20% IV shinies to 28+ IV shinies- that was hated but accepted after a time more so because there were no old IV shinies. All the shiny pokemon were updated. And that's the point really, when the game advances it could be argued you shouldn't leave the outdated stuff around when it was clearly removed for a very good reason.

In my opinion we probbly won't go for a re-roll of old IV pokemon, but there are as many good reasons to do so as there are good reasons not to. The hope is that we can still find a solution that will be a fair, or at least acceptable, compromise to all.

Oh and in answer to your question Electrofreak about posting a sticky post I think it was explaining what we won't do. We really don't have enough set in stone to do that atm. Nor would it solve much as even sticky/announcement topics are passed over by a lot of players so it wouldn't stop us having to explain things again later on anyway.