Slight flaw in game design.

[mcgowent]

I could be wrong but being a man who plays LOTS of games. Seems to be a slight flaw in the game design/flow. Let me explain. I play this game pretty casually and I've played through the first 8 Gym leaders and was all excited to head to the next, but I hit a snag. After all those gym leaders and trainer battles I had 35k of money. Which I thought was fine but I need 100k. But I am not a big complainer so I started re battling trainers that I hadn't for a while. 3 hours later I had only made 15k. So that means it will take me about 10.5 hours of playing to be able to get to the next area.
Is it just me or does that seem a bit of a large slot of time JUST so I can finish the 2nd half of the game?
So like I said I am not a big complainer but I thought I'd just let it be known for the designers. I am not a big pokemon trader and what not so please dont tell me to trade a pokemon.

-mcgowent

 

[Saric]

Won't take long. All you have to do is play the market a bit with rare pokes and shinies, and you'll get the money pretty fast.

 

[risefromruins]

Trading is a big part of pokemon, so get used to it. Surfboards used to cost 200k, and before that they cost 10m. 100k is nothing, if you put in some effort in the trading community you would probably have the money in a few hours.

 

[mcgowent]

I was thinking that might be the reply I would get. But think about that in a game design way. I World of Warcraft, a very successful mmo, I would never have to rely on money made threw trades or the AH to complete the normal story mode idea. For example to get a mount, something useful to speed things along. They, at first cost SOO MUCH MONEY, like the surf board. So they changed it, eventually to something that could be bought with the money you get from completing quest and instances. So what I think would be really nice is if maybe there were more quest or some other alternitive way to get the money OTHER than being forced into trading or grinding out cash. Just an idea really and I think overall it would help out a lot.
Another example that comes to mind, in any of the pokemon games have you EVER needed a huge amount of cash to get further in the game? No but sometimes you'd hit a level wall, where you can't get much father without grinding a few more levels out of your pokemon. So another idea would be to add maybe a trainer you beat that gives you the surf board but make him really hard to beat or something. It just seems odd for a pokemon game to have a money block. Again these are just ideas I have. I respect the amazing work that has gone into this game and the design there of.

 

[TheWyatt2012]

The surfboard isn't just for traveling to Kanto/Johto alone. And you can't really compare PWO to WoW.

After you get all of the badges, you're pretty much going to have to trade, especially if you want to get into the battle scene. I see this as an opportunity to learn how the economy works in a small dose, as the economy is all there is after the badges.

 

[mcgowent]

I know a surf board isn't JUST for going back and forth. But is is essential for the main story line of the game to continue. And Why shouldn't I compare one mmo to another? I was comparing the game design flow not the game game. And just because the end game for this game is bad doesn't mean I should be forced to dip into it in the middle of my adventure. Please don't comment unless you have something worth saying.

 

[TheWyatt2012]

PWO and WoW are two completely different games on two completely different levels. The economy and gameplay are completely different and can't be compared.

And really, PWO has no storyline. I don't consider post-Gym PWO to be bad. If you don't like trading then I don't really think this game is for you. Even in the real games trading is a vital part of the game.

 

[Merse]

What you forget completely that WoW was designed to be an MMO. Every single bit of that game was written having that in the developers mind. PWO is the revival of a SINGLE PLAYER game with MMO elements. Obviously the economy won't be as balanced as in a true MMO.
And yes, PWO has no storyline whatsoever.

 

[mad30]

I actually proposed an argument almost identical to the OPs back when I was a ge and when I reduced the surfboard price. I actually wanted it lower than it currently is but the other staff was against it so I compromised.

How the game was played in the past should give weight to choices in the future except for avoiding problems. Having to grind as much as players do half way through the game is rather silly. The goal of the game is to develop it so people can enjoy it not to make it fair for older players vs newer players. We all started this game to have fun, if we are making decisions that favors fairness over enjoyability we have failed somewhere ESPECIALLY so early in the game where it has minimal effect on other players.

Not sure what the price is, but you should at the very least afford it by the time you get to that point IF you havent bought anything else.

 

[HitmonFonty]

Please don't comment unless you have something worth saying.

I think Wyatt had a few points to make and not all were worthless, even if you thought so.

If you don't like trading then I don't really think this game is for you.

I don't like trading and somehow this game is still 'for me'.

Even in the real games trading is a vital part of the game.

Only if you want to complete the pokedex, which isn't an option here.

Having to grind as much as players do half way through the game is rather silly. The goal of the game is to develop it so people can enjoy it not to make it fair for older players vs newer players. We all started this game to have fun, if we are making decisions that favors fairness over enjoyability we have failed somewhere ESPECIALLY so early in the gam

Agreed, and while I don't think the surfboard should be given away, I think a time consuming but fun quest could be substituted for a grind on low level wild pokemon for the price of the surfboard.

Not sure what the price is, but you should at the very least afford it by the time you get to that point IF you havent bought anything else.

From memory on my last alt I saved as much as I could towards the then 200k surfboard after buying pokeballs and very little if anything else. I ended up with around 70k after the 8 badges. Many won't know to start saving until they have spent money on other things, and things like moon stones and playerdex move changes are sometimes unavoidable and can bite deeply into the savings at that early stage.

And while the storyline is still pretty much non existent here, there is still the desire to complete the 16 badges and not be stuck grinding for money 'mid game' with little reward in Experience Points and therefor level gain on available pokemon which is also needed for the second region gyms.

 

[Merse]

A possible solution would be to increase the price of the surfboard once again to somewhere between 200k-10m, is to make a path between Kanto and Jotho which doesn't requires the surfboard, but add some contents (namely the Orange Archipelago and/or the Whir Islands) which are accessible ONLY with a surfboard. Preferably there should be some Pokemon which would be catchable only there.
But then again there would be players who would complain about the price and how unfair it is that they have to work a little bit to gain access to those islands.

Bottomline is that there will be always someone who complains about how hard this or that part of the game is, until you give it for free. It happens to the surfboard and the bike, no matter how much you reduce the price, it happened and happens to the Dragons Den quest, to the shiny chance etc.

 

[mad30]

A possible solution would be to increase the price of the surfboard once again to somewhere between 200k-10m, is to make a path between Kanto and Jotho which doesn't requires the surfboard, but add some contents (namely the Orange Archipelago and/or the Whir Islands) which are accessible ONLY with a surfboard. Preferably there should be some Pokemon which would be catchable only there.
But then again there would be players who would complain about the price and how unfair it is that they have to work a little bit to gain access to those islands.

Bottomline is that there will be always someone who complains about how hard this or that part of the game is, until you give it for free. It happens to the surfboard and the bike, no matter how much you reduce the price, it happened and happens to the Dragons Den quest, to the shiny chance etc.

Why are you fixated on a high price surfboard, what benefits does it give? How does it effect you? If its for only to be a money sinkhole that's an illogical game design flaw and you sir need to wake up.

People were complaining about not having enough pokeballs in the early stages of the game so I created more ways to gain them, I suppose you think pokeball prices should be raised to? You are comparing items and objects for the post gameplay (mt silver, dragons den, bike), to something that is need to access a large part of the game. It's pretty much going Progress --> progress --> progress -->8badges --> ok stop and grind now, no more progress 4 u LOLOLOL. ---> progress --->progress.

It's not a challenge, it's not fun, its not entertaining, its nothing but frustrating. People wouldn't complain it if was prices at a lvl where it's reasonable for people to have that much pokemoney. People will always complain yes, but when you have this amount of complaints well... surely improvements can be made.

 

[crenel]

I am still in favor of a quest discounting the surfboard or making it free but what do I know.

 

[Merse]

I don't want this debate to turn into personal offenses, so please mad, stop it. If you would have read my post carefully than you should have realized that I want to make the surfboard unnecessary to get all the 16 badges. By the time you get the 16th, you must have about 1 million of cash without making any trade, especially if you don't have to spend money on the surfboard to go to the next region. Then, it should be no problem to pay some money for the surfboard to access to some other region. Practically it's no different to force players to make the DD quest to gain access to the Den.
And I really can't see why you think that I would want to increase the price of Pokeballs.

By the way, should I then complain about the encounter rates? It's even more frustrating than grinding money for a surfboard! At least, there you have a steady progress, while finding a good HR - or any HR at all - is only based on pure luck. Where is the challenge in that?!

 

[mad30]

I don't want this debate to turn into personal offenses, so please mad, stop it. If you would have read my post carefully than you should have realized that I want to make the surfboard unnecessary to get all the 16 badges. By the time you get the 16th, you must have about 1 million of cash without making any trade, especially if you don't have to spend money on the surfboard to go to the next region. Then, it should be no problem to pay some money for the surfboard to access to some other region. Practically it's no different to force players to make the DD quest to gain access to the Den.
And I really can't see why you think that I would want to increase the price of Pokeballs.

By the way, should I then complain about the encounter rates? It's even more frustrating than grinding money for a surfboard! At least, there you have a steady progress, while finding a good HR - or any HR at all - is only based on pure luck. Where is the challenge in that?!

Not trying to make it personal, sorry if it came off that way.

The point I was trying to make, is that you changed the point of the surfboard base on wanting it as a higher priced item, why not change the price of the item to simply reflect what the point of it is currently? There are other ways to create costs for going to other locations and what not, (charge people for boat/train trip).

Pokeballs and the surfboard are about the only 2 items that come close to each other in terms of progressing the game while players are still trying to get badges. Those are about the only 2 NEEDED items until all 16 badges are complete (infact, you dont NEED pokeballs because you can run through the gyms with just 1 pokemon). That was the point.

Also, You don't even get close to 1 million on your first play through, id be SHOCKED if you even get 400k. I bet it's closer to 250k. I am not counting the cost of benefits for mt silver/dragons den and cc quest.

 

[RevengeOfTheWaterBottle]

i am on badge 6 in johto and I only have 27k. then again, I bought pokeballs.

i think I will not finish the region with more than 50k...

 

[Merse]

The point I was trying to make, is that you changed the point of the surfboard base on wanting it as a higher priced item, why not change the price of the item to simply reflect what the point of it is currently? There are other ways to create costs for going to other locations and what not, (charge people for boat/train trip).

Pokeballs and the surfboard are about the only 2 items that come close to each other in terms of progressing the game while players are still trying to get badges. Those are about the only 2 NEEDED items until all 16 badges are complete (infact, you dont NEED pokeballs because you can run through the gyms with just 1 pokemon). That was the point.

Also, You don't even get close to 1 million on your first play through, id be SHOCKED if you even get 400k. I bet it's closer to 250k. I am not counting the cost of benefits for mt silver/dragons den and cc quest.

That's why I suggested to remove the surfing part from the passageway entirely, so a surf is not essential for getting all the badges. However, it could be made useful to access certain other, non essential areas of the game, where the player goes only when he already got all the 16 badges anyway. The exact price of the surfboard is doesn't really matter at this time in this case.
I think players gain some hundred k while they train up their team to match the 8th or 16th gym. At least I did...

 

[HitmonFonty]

The surfboard is still needed currently to reach the best training areas in Johto and Kanto to train up for those final badges- particularly the last one in each region. Without the surfboard- again a lot more grinding anyway to get the levels needed so you're just trading one grind for another. A quest would be far better and more in line with how the game should work anyway.

I also agree (since it was brought up) that grinding for rare/strong pokemon is way too boring and time consuming. I think it's one reason why we have more botters than would otherwise be infesting this game. Some people cheat out of habit or just because it's their nature maybe. But others get frustrated with the interminable grinding and while I don't approve I certainly understand the frustration. And all it harms is the average player playing through the game for enjoyment. The players that are hardcore know it's pointless grinding for every pokemon they want, they just hunt for a select few or those that will get them quick money and buy the best of rares available on the market. Currently I believe this game is not for the person who wants full enjoyment out of playing a game through, there are just too many aspects of the game that are incredibly (dare I say horribly) time consuming to fully achieve. It is a challenge certainly, but even the challenge of running up and down on maps hunting rare pokemon must hurt a bit after spending months and hundreds of hours hunting a pokemon that ends up being useless due to low IVs. I for one am fully in favour of reducing the rarity rates of just about every R+ pokemon and making mindless grinding an OPTION for those who want to find an uber pokemon for themselves instead of an OBLIGATION to get one which has only a lottery chance of being anywhere near decent.

The only people I believe making rare pokemon so hard to find actually benefit are those whose main interest in the game is their price and the desire maybe for keeping the best battlers limited to a few people. The first reason is pointless, since even if the 'economy' was rock bottom prices for most pokemon, there would still be trade/barter as it is in the handhelds- money is NOT needed. The second reason is also pointless, since any trainer worth his sauce should be grateful for more players who have the ability to be competitive- again unless they are just interested in numbers of wins as much as the numbers of dollars on their accounts.

I'm sure everyone agrees with me. So let's change it nao. O0

 

[mcgowent]

Wow that took a bit to read through. Glad people see my points though. I agree that a quest, make it as long as you want something hard, a quest that gets you the board would be amazing. Because the game would keep progressing and it takes the awkward grind out. Also I finally got the 100k needed. I found 1 nice fellow that wanted to buy like half my pokemon that I happen to not be using. So traded was need and a bit more grinding, it has taken me all of 20 mins to finish almost all of the badges Johto now. Is there not a way to up the trainers pokemon lvl in Johto if you started in Kanto and vice a versa? So far it doesn't seem like it really matters but it is odd wiping the floor and getting to the new cities without as much as one trainer that gives me more than 1 exp. Again just another idea. The game is great but we can always make it better!

-Mcgowen

 

[HitmonFonty]

Wow that took a bit to read through. Glad people see my points though. I agree that a quest, make it as long as you want something hard, a quest that gets you the board would be amazing. Because the game would keep progressing and it takes the awkward grind out. Also I finally got the 100k needed. I found 1 nice fellow that wanted to buy like half my pokemon that I happen to not be using. So traded was need and a bit more grinding, it has taken me all of 20 mins to finish almost all of the badges Johto now. Is there not a way to up the trainers pokemon lvl in Johto if you started in Kanto and vice a versa? So far it doesn't seem like it really matters but it is odd wiping the floor and getting to the new cities without as much as one trainer that gives me more than 1 exp. Again just another idea. The game is great but we can always make it better!

-Mcgowen

Best place to train in Johto currently before you finish the 16 badges(not counting Dragon's Den which requires a very likely quite long quest to access) is the back of mt mortar which you need a surfboard to get to. Once you have the 16 badges you have mt silver to train at which is the best place in the game thus far to train most higher level pokemon.