Shiny IV change.

[The-Predator]

What Fonty said and i do agree with the IV change and the random nature (I do realize that i could have some of the best pokemon now and could turn out not to be even good after getting its nature)

 

[CheckeredZebra]

Feels like to me this would be the equivalent of finding a 4 star loot object out of a bunch of 1-2 star loot,which should be useful but in pwos case no one wants, and turning it into a 5 star loot object instead of continuously looting for that 5 start loot object.

The main thing with natures and battle useability is that some pokemon have a 1/8,000,000+ chance of being encountered in the wild. You can't just "catch another, better one." Just check up on how many in-the-wild-only HRs are in the game. (So not dragonite or Bagon because they're in the token store. I'll think of an example later, but maybe houndour/houndoom? Ey.) It is just absolutely not a viable course of action.

It's one thing to keep trying to catch a perfect, HR Skarmory, but go ahead and try getting a perfect Skarm. >< Such rare shinies don't have to be better than what they're fighting, but I feel they should be comparable to hard-farmed, battle-worthy, good-natured normal pokemon with a bit of effort (EV training and nature questing). In terms of making them viable battle machines, there is no other choice BUT to "turn 4 star loot into 5 star loot" because as said, we can't just get more of them if we want to use them. Finding an extremely rare shiny takes as much luck as hunting down several HRs until you have the "right" one anyway, which is what you are wanting players to do.

Nature selection is something you could do more easily in the handhelds through breeding, which is not an option here. This is why I suggested making people work for their natures. In terms of commons, you could make the quest not be worth it (potentially through limited quest availability, such as being available only once every whenever ] with a randomized nature as a reward. [maybe once every 2 months+ or once per season, giving players 3/4-6 chances a year when they're only wanting 2/25 natures. This would discourage "wasting" your chances on sub-par shiny commons or pokemon you are not seriously training).

In my opinion, it would suck to catch one of those lottery pokemon and not be able to competitively fight with it ever, especially when the chances to see one are similar to finding several HRs. Let's say your Skarmory has a terrible nature that gives you -def and +sp att. IF you go with the 3ish-6 chances a year + randomized nature reward, I feel like it would be fair and difficult but at least possible to obtain a super, battle worthy shiny skarmory if you sink enough time/effort into it. And that's just for one member out of a team of six. It would take a lot of time, luck, and effort to have a "perfect" PvP team. Furthermore, the quest method would not be as efficient as just re-catching some of your less rare team members anyhow (such as getting a new Shiny Kingdra).

Plus, as I said earlier, somebody might not try to upgrade from a decent nature to a perfect nature, out of fear that they would lose the slight improvement they already have. (So perhaps a +def, -att Skarm would never be improved to a +def, -sp att Skarm out of fear of the nature becoming -def, + sp att for the rest of the year.)


Thus, for several reasons (especially with shinies you cannot viably get more of (imo, it stops being viable at high-end rares+), I DO still support the "upgrading your loot" concept. As explained in the post above, a randomized quest is not easily abuse-able, should not unbalance the game, requires a bit effort/luck, is time consuming, adds an element of PvE that players can control/work with (unlike 90% of what we have now which is luck based) AND is fair to old players that have old shinies and future new players that find new shinies/amazing stat'd normal pokemon. It also caters to players of any rank (wealthy, broke, new, old, etc). Finally, though not most importantly, it would allow for every older player to kind of adjust to major, future system changes through a bit of effort, which could help with future staff-to-player cooperation.You know, instead of the players feeling like they're going to lose a ton of work every time something changes.


tl;dr: (If you're staff, please read the whole post.)

Spoiler

1.You pretty much can't "just catch more of" HRs/ VRs. 2. Nature refining was possible in handhelds through breeding, but we don't have that. A time-restricted quest would fill the same role only without devaluing the pokemon. 4.Finding some of these pokemon require the chances of winning a small lottery, and if we consider Pokemon comparable to other MMO loot...such rare MMO loot is generally useful in some way through PvE, PvP or convenience (EG: Battle gear or rideable mounts.) I'm betting players would like for shinies to fill in as a similar, emotionally-fulfilling role. 5. a +12 in nature vs. a +10 can be a double-edged sword, because if a user gets a "bad" nature it would do more harm than good. Therefore having an ability to randomly change would be balanced in those situations if the quest was restricted enough. 6. Shinies don't have to be better than 90% of well-selected pokemon out there, but I'd like for them to be compete-able. 6. Questing fixes a lot of problems with very few downsides. 7. Questing is fair to everyone if they put in a bit of work, not just the vets, which was a concern before.

An even shorter tl;dr (pros and cons not mentioned)

Spoiler

Randomized natures for everyone, reduced IV range to early 20s-31, natures can be randomly re-chosen with a limited quest that is open to everyone, potential +12 stat (instead of +10) boost to shiny pokemon natures.

 

[Peace-Enforcer]

Well CheckeredZebra you have submeresed all of my feeling in your post.
And i completely agree.

Reason for me posting this isn't to make a redundant post but to give credit to this opinion.

 

[Puar]

Not sure if I read what teck said right or not. But it seems like it has been suggested that shinies currently in the game may be subject to having their IVs changed?
Random or not that is completely unacceptable.
I have spend 1000+ hours farming.
Even more time than that in xats negotiating trades and trying to find what I want for a good price on trade sections.
All the time spent aside, I have also spent hundreds in tokens to get the pokemon I want. Shiny. Wild caught. Because they have GOOD IVs.
Even though the token store shinies came out I wanted to grab them and flip them for wild caught because I knew the value would go down.
To take all that work and tell me that your going to make my pokemon have worse IVs for the sake of being fair to people who catch wild shinies after this change is a slap in the face.
I'd probably leave because of it.

 

[Hionn]

I disagree Hionn.
A basic economic principle is the idea of supply vs demand.
You are correct in thinking that supply will remain relatively the same regarding new pokemon with lower ivs.
But demand for them will go down due to the already existing pokemon inthe market which will be considered superior.
So since supply is the same and demand is expected to go down, it is safe to say that the new pokemon with inferior ivs will be more available to poorer players due to the lower price.

The new, the new, the new... Old shinys will have perfect ivs, valuable pokemons, news players will find news pokemons without value, making like impossible become rich as an old player with a big list of perfect shinys. In my country about 5% of the population have 50% of the riches of this country. Chagins IVs will do the same (making news players go away due to the difference and preparing the lane for a WIPE). Shinys should keep as they are, they're specials talented pokemons that borns with a chance of (1/2024 (or 1/8096 without ms) if i'm not wrong) that is more powerfull than any other pokemon, as they are. Change the IVs of the shinys already in-game? how about players that paid a lot for very specials pokemons with max spd or 32 IV on something, their stats will be sort again?

EDIT: Teck, please don't ruin this game, chaging ivs to 22-31, is a lack of respect with old players, that will see most of their powerfull pokemons becoming useless, like a VR all 28 ivs

 

[barcelona1991]

Not sure if I read what teck said right or not. But it seems like it has been suggested that shinies currently in the game may be subject to having their IVs changed?
Random or not that is completely unacceptable.
I have spend 1000+ hours farming.
Even more time than that in xats negotiating trades and trying to find what I want for a good price on trade sections.
All the time spent aside, I have also spent hundreds in tokens to get the pokemon I want. Shiny. Wild caught. Because they have GOOD IVs.
Even though the token store shinies came out I wanted to grab them and flip them for wild caught because I knew the value would go down.
To take all that work and tell me that your going to make my pokemon have worse IVs for the sake of being fair to people who catch wild shinies after this change is a slap in the face.
I'd probably leave because of it.

Same Here;
Completly Agree With You.

 

[BruNo1989]

If the ivs were supposed to own 22-31, by exemple. That means old-caught shinies will have their changes applied as well.
Raffle ivs 28 to values between 22-31, keeping all the old ivs above 28.

 

[Saric]

The community surely would accept a complete IV overhaul, if in case of multiple choices, like in Teck example, there are many possible outcomes, the already caught shinys would be granted to have either the best possible outcome, or at least not the worst one.

I'd have to disagree with you there. I very highly doubt the veterans who have spent millions of pokedollars and hundreds of hours getting their good shinies would just sit back and watch as they get completely nerfed and see how all of their work went to waste.

 

[LanceDM]

So basically we had this discution for nothing Teck ?

What you (all) seem not to understand, If I bought a very good car in 1950 and its still like new in 2013 because I care alot about it and now I want to sell it, how much you think it will cost ? There are NEW cars, but none has what my old car has, its unique, because I WAS there when it was being sold and Im not dead (inactive) so I can now sell it for a good amount.

This update (if I understand what you're saying) is NOT a balance, you're kicking us (old players) with a hammer in the face! The balance is going to the new players only, and the ones that never bought something over 500m like some on this topic. I could understand what you did with the Shiny Boost in 2009/2010, was a sick way of playing, BUT NOW ? You've seen our teams! They are UBERS only, ANY of them can be countered if you pick the right pokemon to fight against each one. I tried to stay respectfull but you can't just make that desition after what has been discussed here. There are more ways to make a BALANCE, don't do it, there must have to be another way, and we gave you ideas... Jesus.

Can't you just compensate this with more EV points for the new shinys or something like that ? But seriously, you can't simply come here and piss on our heads after all you've read and heard from us. If someone agrees with your unbalance idea its coz they can't contain their envy or they simply don't have a good shiny on their pc, they never paid a good amount for one, too obvious. Yes, we must think about the future of pwo, but we are the future of pwo too, as players here we ARE pwo, listen us.

 

[EcoWOLFrb]

Puar I'm in complete agreement, I've spend so much time and effort getting the shinies that I want with just 1 or 2 particular iv's that make the difference. It's ridiculous to lower the iv's of our current pokemon because then they might not even be as good as some of the newly caught shinies. Take Kingdra for example, people will still be able to get max speed good spatk kingdra's and if my current one was lowered to 30iv speed then I would have no chance against even the new ones. You're talking about lowering them by no more than a few points teck... what's the big difference? Is that worth hitting us all so hard? Even with the current shinies iv's the way they are people are just going to collect new max speed shinies with 25+ other iv's because they'll still be available, so why make our shinies useless against them?

Also Merse that's ridiculous, having special TM's and natures that only shiny pokemon can have would make shinies OP beyond belief and screw over the new players battling with non shiny versions. I don't want new players to have an easy time getting competitive but I don't want to make it unfair either. And you're crazy if you think we'd just go happily on our way as our hard work becomes pointless if it's avoidable ...which it definitely is.

Also I don't know who brought up 4 times a year but that's a little low in my opinion, especially if the nature change is random, if it's an actual choice then sure, 4 times a year sounds reasonable. If not then i think at the very least once a month or so. I thought we were talking once every two weeks for a random chance or so...

I don't know how we've gone from trying to have a compromise and lowering future shinies iv's and not touching current shinies and adding more move selection, then to including natures and having a huge uproar about that until we figure out a quest to help people out, and now we're lowering existing and future shinies iv's, only allowing nature changes to older players...

And why only make the quest available to old players? Breeding was available in the game for that very reason. Just like I don't want a disadvantage I don't want new players to have a disadvantage either. Let us all be able to do the quest and actually make it equal.

The thing I don't get is why the old shinies would need to be reworked... how is it unfair? As long as a new shiny gyarados has the same speed and good atk it would be able to take on a current max speed gyarados... same with kingdra and spatk... same with every shiny out there. And as merse said all the old shinies would eventually go inactive anyway as people quit (which would happen much more quickly if you messed with people's hard work). When the 20% boost happened the best shinies still were the best shinies... this would not be the case with this update if existing shinies were touched.

 

[HOF69]

So from what I'm reading, the staff and several players seem to generally be in favor of not only lowering the IVs of all shiny Pokémon (ones that already exist and those yet to be caught), but also implementing random natures for all Pokémon (again, ones that already exist and those yet to be caught). As for why this should be done, well everyone seems to have different opinions. There doesn't appear to be a consensus.

Increasing the range of IVs for shiny Pokémon yet to be caught and randomizing their natures I can understand. Even if it's not fully accepted by the community at first, everyone will still have that chance of finding just the right Pokémon (be it shiny or not). Everyone will be affected by this change, and the chance of finding the perfect Pokémon will be completely up to luck.

However, I must emphatically disagree with the proposal to lower the IVs and randomize the natures of all currently existing shiny Pokémon. For anyone, staff or current players, that agree that this would be a fair move for everyone, clearly they do not understand the time and effort that many of us veteran players have put into this game in order to acquire what we have. Each and every one of us started with nothing, and slowly we have worked to acquire the best Pokémon we could find. Altering the existing shiny Pokémon in such a way that would make many of them worthless is an insult, and as Puar said, a collective slap to our faces. Are we really just supposed to sit back and watch as all of our efforts go to waste in a mere instant? I don't think so; that's completely and utterly ridiculous. Changing what has yet to be caught is one thing, as that's all based on luck anyway. But destroying what many of us have worked hard to acquire because we knew the Pokémon we were going after were good is the single worst idea to ever face PWO. The day you ruin our Pokémon is the day you alienate (and infuriate) the entire veteran community.

 

[CheckeredZebra]

only allowing nature changes to older players...

I never, ever said that. D: I would never WANT that either. No offense to her, but either Teck didn't quite understand what I meant or I wasn't clear enough when I gave a detailed quest response. Try reading my post again, it addresses 90% of the issues and I couldn't think of any real downsides to it.

If anyone would care to look at my post and find exploits or downsides to my idea, that would be fantastic. There's even a summary for those that hate reading so much.

(Geez. Not aimed at only one person but it's like people in general are half reading things and then getting outraged by the half-content they're reading. I expected this with non-forum regulars to a degree, but come on. Props to peace-enforcer for reading it, though. xD)

 

[Tecknician]

Everyone calm down, the last few posts was just a "What I (personally) think is even across the board(pior-work to obtain the pokes not included)/easiest update possible" scenario.

Adding natures, evs and everything else hasn't even been said was going to happen. To a point I am simply interested in this topic to see if it's even worth the effort, and seeing how much hostility and disagreement there is in this topic, seems like people would rather keep things the way they are than have actual progress for the game (some).

For the most part, everyone is either super defensive or really aggressive, makes discussion rather unpleasant because simply mentioning changing ivs for current pokemon is meet with hostility about how I will ruin the game. Fun fact: This isn't a topic of "This will happen, lets discuss how to do it" this is a topic of "If this happens, what would the players want" even though the topic was suppose to be "Inorder for this to happen, what needs to be done inorder for it to have to happen due to old system being outdated".

I will say this again, Current range is too small and it being added the way it did harmed the game, but everyone not including myself don't see it as a negative so instead of looking at it as a fix everyone besides myself see's it as a lost.

 

[Saric]

Everyone calm down, the last few posts was just a "What I (personally) think is even across the board(pior-work to obtain the pokes not included)/easiest update possible" scenario.

Adding natures, evs and everything else hasn't even been said was going to happen. To a point I am simply interested in this topic to see if it's even worth the effort, and seeing how much hostility and disagreement there is in this topic, seems like people would rather keep things the way they are than have actual progress for the game (some).

I'm sure most of the players are all for some progress in the game, but completely doing shiny IVs over and screwing over the hard work that some of the older players have put in isn't exactly a good choice. Yes, you can't please everyone but with that sort of change it'd cause horrendous backlash and cause most of the staple older players to leave.

 

[HOF69]

To a point I am simply interested in this topic to see if it's even worth the effort, and seeing how much hostility and disagreement there is in this topic, seems like people would rather keep things the way they are than have actual progress for the game (some).

Teck, I apologize if this sounds hostile, but how would ruining the efforts of an entire community be considered progress? I'm sure there are ways to improve PWO without spoiling the hard work of the veteran players.

 

[Tecknician]

Edit my post above, (saric and hof posted before edit was finished).

Will tl;dr. What I talked about was not so much a suggestion or anything of a sort, but a mere what would I personally think be the best route not taking into account only the situation of the game moving forward and the easiest route for myself.

 

[Nikola]

-There are too many emotions involved in this thread and people aren't thinking rationally. If one is trying to prove opposite then another, then this is going to lead no where. There are several things you keep forgetting. Update isn't made yet and no one is affected with it. There are no people from the future to give us their opinion. You are either hater or you have fail facts when you want to put in danger your hard work if you had any. If you are going against yourself then something obviously isn't right. If I bought Mustang from 69 I can't expect that Ford is going to call me saying that they are planning to remove V8 from my car I already bought from the catalogue having specs where V8 was included. Even today it will pass eco test before any Mercedes. But for real, no one who can think rationally will allow to put their hard work in danger. I would like to see people giving valid suggestions without emotions included such as leaving the game style. This thread can easily turn into debate between citizens and politicians which wouldn't be good. I would like to put my love for this game on a test if server purge ever happens rather then seeing hard work being exploited even more. I wish there is another server getting update rather then doing any measure that will hurt player on a current one, however that is almost mission impossible since staff itself said that we do not need new server. Trying to find some sort of a balance is more then enough for this update. I am not going to allow to myself to think non rationally due to emotions and for the same reason I would like to see some changes if there will any reasonable limit. I don't have any personal interest since I obtained everything I wanted in this world and any changes for me is welcome. This way or another this the best game ever so don't you worry.

 

[Merse]

I'd have to disagree with you there. I very highly doubt the veterans who have spent millions of pokedollars and hundreds of hours getting their good shinies would just sit back and watch as they get completely nerfed and see how all of their work went to waste.

I forgot the "more likely" expression which was intended to be placed int he first part of the sentence... What I meant is that the community would easier accept a change if the players get some kind of guarantee that they won't lose (too big) on it. Well, at least I believe in the common enlightenment and good faaith of humanity....

By the way, the last few posts perfectly shows what I was talking about, namely veterans start to make the development and the extension of the game harder and harder. Blah-blah-blah, I won't repeat myself Only that part that it is completely understandable, but not desirable and that we must to find a compromise otherwise the development of the game soon will be stalled.

I personally would accept any change, even if it hurts me or my Pokemon, if it leads to the further extension and more complexity of the game. Well, a complete wipe of everything could wreck some fuses in my brain too I know I can't measure myself to those who are here for 3-4 years, but as Blue said, we signed up for an unfinished beta game, of course radical changes are to be expected. And sometimes some people will lose on those changes.

 

[LanceDM]

The thing, merse... is that we are here, trying to make a BALANCE, people like you will never understand, same as these who were banned. And don't talk about veterans like that, check my post, I've been giving ideas and I agreed with changing ivs, but losing years of work is a diff thing, SHINYS are already differents in this game so, the fact that pwo is beta is not a good excuse.

Teck, take your time to think a bit more the situation, there are lots of ways to ''progress'' WITHOUT harming others. I gave you a good example, Darcia gave you a good example aswell. Its the easyer way, but not the best. Looks like some came here to ruin us, giving u gas to burn our words. I won't give names, but Im sure you can realize it urself.

So, basically if I've been here for a long time and Beldum was Vr for a time (for exampel) and I caught 5 of them, 7 months have passed and its now uc, some newbies can't buy beldums coz its too expensive, so you'll wipe every account because new players can't get it ? This situation sounds like that.
We've been here, helping, reporting, testing... if we have something somehow we deserve it, cost us years, months. Check the names when a topic to discuss stuff is made, look around who are the ones answering, giving ideas, look and tell me if I'm wrong.

 

[HitmonFonty]

The question has been asked, why even add these updates? As if there is confusion about it. As Teck says, do you want the game to remain the same, are all the efforts of Admin and DEVs to advance the game wasted? Natures are part of pokemon, so are EVs.. shiny bonuses are part of PWO. Teck is questioning the range of IVs for current shinies and the debate through this thread has generally agreed to it being a good idea to increase that range. BUT you want to hold on to your old epic pokes- all of them. But your pokes were epic in one way only- IVs. And even that was a PWO only bonus that has already changed once in the past. The game now has a chance to update it seems in a major way. but many of you here seem to be giving an ultimatum saying 'you can make the changes but only if our old 'classic' pokemon remain the same'. Knowing that if they do remain the same they will be OP compared to newly caught pokemon for a long time to come, not just the same as now but OP because it will take longer to hunt down similar strength pokemon to your perfect ones in the future. It will create a huge rift between older players and newer. Also claiming that the whole community is against this is a big leap, I am all for complete progress as I've said and I have little more direct say over decisions like this than any other player. And as a player I want this game to progress and the pokemon that I have caught over the years to progress with it equally whatever that means. I wouldn't want to still have my earlier +20% shinies in my account any more than I'd want an unfair advantage over newer players now by keeping the bonus on the many many shinies I have now.

Let the game progress, nothing suggested here is designed to make your pokemon worse in the end. IVs drop initially but that will be made up with natures which was why it was offered to increase the nature bonus from +10 to +12. The suggestion to randomise natures and IVs for current shinies is not to nerf them but to retain some balance in the game, not keep whole generations of OP shinies ingame if and when this update is introduced. Your max IV pokemon will still be max or just short of it at worst, plus it could have the chance to get the perfect nature to boost that with items or quests in the future if it's out of luck right away. I don't see a downside, it means everyone has to adjust, everyone has to playtest the new changes. And that's what this is all about right? I have little doubt that the players that have enjoyed so much success in this game up until now will have little difficulty adjusting and continuing on with that success in spite of having to put that bit more effort into their pokemon again for a while.