policy issues

[Arnie]

lets start off by saying that this isn't a rant. i am currently pissed off but this isn't directed at anyone.

As some of you may know i was token scammed a week or so ago. i never complained, i didn't go GM HAAALLLPPPPP all over the chat, i did what anyone in the situation should have done, post SS's of the infraction + extra bits (in my case the completed paypal transaction for token sale). the guy was banned quickly and effectively by lee, and i thought it was a sure thing that i would eventually get what i was paying for, which was an Arcanine. but to my surprise today i find out that i would get my tokens i spent back (which would have been fine were that the case) but the guy that was banned spent 8 of them trying to get a shiny charmander, obviously he failed because would i be complaining if i had a freaking shiny charmander sat in my box?. so instead of me either getting what i paid for or getting the tokens that i traded i got a charmander and 2 tokens (of which have no use to me). now to me that's just a double kick in the teeth. getting scammed is 1 thing. ive only ever been scammed once before and it wasn't even a trade scam. but to get back a poke that i didn't even want/need (and is only worth <50k ingame not that that matters to me) but i got an amount of tokens that i cant even use unless i donate more. so wheres the justice in that? i applaud Lee for actually taking the time to look into the case for me and dealing with it but with this outcome i wish he rather have not bothered because at least then id know i wouldn't be getting anything back.

What i'm getting at is there needs to be a rethink on the policy for token scams. in my case the guy still had the Arcanine in question AND even said on the ban appeal thread that i could have it still (the stats weren't amazing however i was trading for the poke not the stats). i would have understood if the person didn't have the pokemon and that the stuff i got back was all they could do. that would have been fair enough and i would have accepted that and carried on with the notion that i can trust nobody. but instead i'm left with a 'consolation' which was both dissatisfying and made my stomach turn.

Its too late for me since i will probably be quitting because of this, which is a shame because i like playing the game and i always make an effort to do good things for people. But if it will help people in the future then thats all good.

 

[pieoffury]

Bro, don't quit. I'm sure they'll do something about it. 10 tokens for S arcanine isn't the same as 2 tokens + charmander fo S arcanine. That's injustice. I'd rather get them to give you back your 10 tokens or take back the 2 tokens + charmander and give you the guy's S arcanine. This is just wrong on so many levels

 

[nemo55]

Oh believe me I have had similar issues, not to do with tokens. But other things...worst part is I have developed enough credibility as yourself and all that down the drain pretty much. I know they preach equality, and no special treatment. But there needs to be a better way...it angers me and makes me sick to my stomach.

Case in example: http://forum.pokemon-world-online.net/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=30488

Tell me I don't provide a legitimate argument which truly does make sense in link above. Worst of all topic gets locked! Yet another slap in the face my friend.

Best advice I can give you is maybe don't donate a penny anymore towards the game? Maybe that is best way...I refuse to donate because of cases like these and others which have hurt my feelings greatly...

Usually people don't get 2 tokens refund. I'd say you are lucky on that part lol. Anyways, hope you stay in PWO, because I get a sense you mean a lot to the community.

 

[SapphirePhoenix]

It's sad to see you leave because I was watching the Lugia Skin topic. It does suck that the person who scammed spent the tokens and you got left with the results of their spending, but saying that you'd rather get nothing than have at least 2 tokens back and whatever they tried to spend it on seems a bit harsh since staff at least took the time and effort to return something that was associated with you (since according to the token issues topic, having anything returned wasn't guaranteed) :s I suppose my point of view was because in other places I dwell at, people who are scammed usually don't get anything in return other than having the perpetrator banned, so it was nice and refreshing of them to offer some form of compensation here.

Case in example: http://forum.pokemon-world-online.net/showthread.php?tid=29654

Tell me I don't provide a legitimate argument which truly does make sense in link above.

Because you invited commentary on this subject.. You don't really provide a legitimate argument. What Brennan was asking for in that thread was screenshot proof that you and sufyan made the trade for the specific purpose of battle testing, which you did not provide. You and sufyan mentioned it, but gave no solid concrete screenshot evidence to back up your words, and all you both did was give screenshots of the trade itself, which Brennan stated he already knew took place. Without screenshot evidence of the actual reason for making the trade, who knows what really happened. Maybe you two were in on some sort of botting conspiracy..

But other things...worst part is I have developed enough credibility as yourself and all that down the drain pretty much.

In my opinion, word-of-mouth (aka reporting stuff without screenshot proof) and reputation/credibility isn't enough evidence to take action because such things risk being prone to lying and favoritism; why should the staff only take action for word-of-mouth reports made from people they know? That isn't fair for a game with 300,000+ players. What is fair is that everyone provide the same report method which is taking screenshots of everything. And on the other hand if they took everyone's word-of-mouth posts as valid report material, that risks having the report area flooded with liars. We don't want that to happen so it's understandable to me why they ask for screenshots. Now, I don't know either of you at all so your persuasions to take action via familiarity is lost on me, so this is just my commentary looking into your world from the perspective of a random player

 

[Arnie]

i still don't see the issue. the guy has the Arcanine in his account. he clearly isn't gonna be using it since he is banned. he spent the tokens AFTER he was banned. so therefore i should still get what i actually paid for. because people who know me know i sure as hell wouldn't spend tokens on a charmander. Its like if for example someone doesn't send you an item after you've paid for it on ebay, you wait for their resolution proceedings to go through, only for them to say 'Sorry but because they spent the money you gave them on an iPhone accessory pack you cant have the money back, so we will send you that instead' (when you have an Android device). This is similar to how i feel right now. i already have enough useless crap in my account i don't need more.

 

[mad30]

crying out loud arnie, werent u a former gml? did you bother to bring up policy issue then? ofc not. Only now that it happened to you do you bother you know the policy

when i was gm ppl would intentionally trying to get scam just to catch ppl, this is why while what you want is a good idea in theory, still has it flaws

grow the jager bomb up... talking about leaving and crap, stay classy

 

[Arnie]

crying out loud arnie, werent u a former gml? did you bother to bring up policy issue then? ofc not. Only now that it happened to you do you bother you know the policy

when i was gm ppl would intentionally trying to get scam just to catch ppl, this is why while what you want is a good idea in theory, still has it flaws

grow the jager bomb up... talking about leaving and crap, stay classy

We didn't even have a token system when i was a GM, so how was a meant to speak out about a system that never existed?

 

[mad30]

crying out loud arnie, werent u a former gml? did you bother to bring up policy issue then? ofc not. Only now that it happened to you do you bother you know the policy

when i was gm ppl would intentionally trying to get scam just to catch ppl, this is why while what you want is a good idea in theory, still has it flaws

grow the jager bomb up... talking about leaving and crap, stay classy

We didn't even have a token system when i was a GM, so how was a meant to speak out about a system that never existed?

other scams... srsly are you the real arnie?

 

[Arnie]

no, i killed the real one and stole his life...

seriously lol its me. but i actually remember giving the scammed person the pokemon they were trading for (providing they had the evidence that it was actually the poke being traded).

 

[dageki]

And if there is evidence or suspicion that the shiny arca was itself illegally obtained? This person had no qualms stealing tokens from you it's a fair bet they wouldn't have thought twice about botting or whatever. And if the arca was illegally obtained then it shouldn't go back into circulation. The charmander was definitely legally obtained with your tokens, so while the outcome sucks it may well be the best- and only possible one in your case.

 

[Dovee]

Oh believe me I have had similar issues, not to do with tokens. But other things...worst part is I have developed enough credibility as yourself and all that down the drain pretty much. I know they preach equality, and no special treatment. But there needs to be a better way...it angers me and makes me sick to my stomach.

Case in example: http://forum.pokemon-world-online.net/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=30488

Tell me I don't provide a legitimate argument which truly does make sense in link above. Worst of all topic gets locked! Yet another slap in the face my friend.

Best advice I can give you is maybe don't donate a penny anymore towards the game? Maybe that is best way...I refuse to donate because of cases like these and others which have hurt my feelings greatly...

Usually people don't get 2 tokens refund. I'd say you are lucky on that part lol. Anyways, hope you stay in PWO, because I get a sense you mean a lot to the community.

Nemo this isnt the first time ive seen you link your topic to someone elses topic. This topic is about token scam policies, not your issue. Also the correct decisions were made. If those policies arent in place people will get pokemon off banned accounts with the help of their friends. Its time for you to move on.......

 

[Thor]

Yes you shouldn't get the pokemon off banned accounts, yes you shouldn't get money from token scams back but you should be entitled to the full amount of tokens you donated. If the pokemon bought and remainder of tokens are trapped on one account they are out of the game so the policy should be changed so that the donator can have the full token worth back rather than whatever the scammer chose to buy

 

[Saurus]

Honestly, I only read up to where you didn't want a charmander and it seemed a bit childish to contribute a post around that. You could've composed a PM, stated your issue/concern and sent it off to the parties who handles that. I'm not trying to offend you or anything because you do have the right to ask about these things but doing it openly like this will warrant others to do the same if they are unhappy.

Token scams are not GM's fault or Lee's fault or whatever the case may be but they do happen, certainly because staff know this, they still compensated you with a pokemon (charmander) and two tokens as stated by you. Apologies if I read incorrectly. And I suppose the compensation was due to screenshots with valid evidence of the transaction that took place.

What I suggest you do is exactly that. To make a post in the suggestions section where you speak of Policy issues. Hopefully you can get a much clearer response.

 

[Arnie]

This has been done and done. From now on ill just have to trust nobody and be selfish. thread can be closed or deleted if any staff member likes

 

[Shiningamisgirl]

I do get what the problem is..

The issue is that he person in question Had The S Arcanine. The exact creature Arnie traded the 10 tokens over for in the first place. Why not just give Arnie what he'd paid for? Why go through a whole refunding 'thing'.

This isn't like other scams, where the person doesn't have what their selling. This person has what Arnie traded his money for. (and it is money, which is the difference, and why token scamming gets a whole separate section than regular scams. Is that it is money, which is then turned into invaluable -valueless in some cases- Gift Tokens, which can only ever be spent on the game, on the account they get sent to, and never refunded back into real cash, or traded between other accounts; once on an account.)

They didn't need to return his 'tokens' to him at all, they didn't need to refund $10 either. They could have simply handed him what he'd paid for in the first place, banned the person, and been done with it.

OR returned to him is Ten Tokens. It wouldn't have cost them anything to do it (as tokens once purchased are no longer money, they are gifts for donating. Tokens are Not Real.) Arnie donated 10 - they could have returned to him 10. Since Tokens are not actual money, or even dollars; they would not have been giving him $10, just 10 tokens.

This is much different from reimbursing him through paypal.

 

[Merse]

Because that Arca may have been illegally obtained. And if this is the case, it should remain banned and Arnie should get his tokens - the whole amount.

 

[Shiningamisgirl]

Because that Arca may have been illegally obtained.

I agree he should get his full amount back then, but that particular part of this is what I find issue with. The whole 'May Have Been' thing.

Now, I thought this user had been banned because of this scam incident, as well as sharing his account with his brother (or so he claims). So..Account Sharing and Scamming. Not necessarily hacking or botting. The S Arca may have been legitimately caught; the staff have the resources to check on that of course (Don't they?).

Now if there is proof on their end that the Arca was illegally obtained, then I get it. Leave the Arca on the banned account. Refund the tokens, be done.

If however it was legally obtained, complete the trade (transfer it over, etc) as per original agreement for the two parties. (Since the guy is banned, would have given it over anyways, and will not be using that account ever again.)

The account always was, and now will forever be, property of this game. The staff can do what they want with it, and whatever content is on it.

Also This - http://forum.pokemon-world-online.net/showthread.php?tid=12864

Everyone did follow procedure..as far as Token Scams go, and as far as the rules go. If however, there is a choice between transferring the tokens and Pokemon tokens were spent on, and transferring the Pokemon the tokens were originally traded for. Why choose one over the other?