Pokemon Natures

fableboy

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I WAS TALKING TO MY FRIENDS ABOUT POKEMON NATURES AND THOUGHT PWO STAFF MIGHT BE WORKING ON IT SO DECIDED TO MAKE THIS TOPIC OF WEATHER OR NOT THE NATURES SHOULD BE INTRODUCED AND IF THEY DO,CAN WE CHANGE THE NATURES OF THE POKEMON AT WILL?(LIKE IN A FEW OTHER GAMES,IM NOT GOONA MENTION NAMES)

PROBLEMS REGARDING NATURES IN PWO
1.MY VERY FIRST PROBLEM IS THAT THE FEAR OF A WORTHY POKEMON BECOMING USELESS,JUST AN EXAMPLE OF JOLTEON,IF SOMEONE HAS A JOLTEON OF IVS LIKE HP:20 ATTACK:22 DEF:28 SPATCK:31 SPDEF:29 SPEED:31 WHICH PROBABLY WORTH 200M++ AND IMAGINE IT GETS A NATURE WHICH DECREASES ITS SPEED AND INCREASES ITS ATTACK,WHA WOULD BE OF IT THEN?SAME GOES TO OLD IV SHINY POKES WHICH ARE RLY HARD TO GET.
2.IN OTHER POKEMON GAMES,WE CAN JUST BREED AND BREED TWO POKEMON UNTIL WE GET OUR DESIRED NATURE,BUT HERE ITS DIFFERENT,IMAGINE A GUY WITH SHINY GALLADE,HE FIRST BUYS TOKENS WITH MONEY THEN KEEP ON BUYING RALTS WITH SHINY CHANCE,FINALLY HE GETS ONE MALE SHINY RALTS(A FEMALE SHINY IS ALMOST A WASTE),AND HE GETS A NATURE ON IT WHICH LOWERS ITS ATTACK AND INCRESES ITS SPATCK,ITS GONNA BE A WASTE OF GOOD EFFORTS,THE MEAN OF SAYING IS GETTING A CERTAIN POKEMON IS HARD IN PWO,COMPARED TO OTHER GAMES

MY SUGGESTIONS
I SUGGEST THERE SHOULD BE NATURES(YES OFCOURSE)BUT WITH AN OPTION TO CHANGE NATURE,IT MAY COST MONEY LIKE MOVE CHANGE OR SOME ITEM BOUGHT FROM TOKEN STORE AT A FAIR PRICE,+ID SAY EVS ARE AT OUR OWN WILL SO WHY NOT NATURES,AFTER ALL WE NEED TO THINK OF A CERTAIN TEAM BY ADJUSTING POKES,EVS,AND NATURES,BESIDES PWO IS A UNIQUE GAME WHICH SHOULD HAVE ITS UNIQUE THINGS LIKE A NATURE CHANGE

I WANT ALL PWO SENIOR AND NEW MEMBERS TO GIVE THEIR POINT OF VIEW ON IT

LOVE U PWO <3
 

Electrofreak

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We should be able to change natures, but they should not be simply done on playerdex. Natures NEED to be able to have changes done, but not at the snap of a finger. There should be a limitation to how fast you can change natures as it would otherwise make certain old iv shinies too powerful due to their versatility. (I'm looking at you S Salamence.)

We also need a way to change abilities, however the same thing goes for the above.

I understand how some would bring up the argument of "perfect pokemon" but the issue is spitting in the faces of old players over something that cycles out of the game anyway. Even this past year, there is a huge lack of 28+ pokemon for sale anymore.


TL;DR
We need modifications, but don't make them easy. Make us work for it. A person should not be able to just "get lucky" with a good iv shiny and then be able to do whatever with no opportunity cost. It would give balance to the game to add a meaningful task to the process of changing a pokemon.
 

HitmonFonty

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I assure you we have been and still are considering the effect adding Natures to the game will have. I believe we have been able to add them for quite some time now, but it's issues like the ones you have addressed here that have held us back until now. We do have a couple of workable ideas on the table though and it's only a matter of time before we sort through to find the best option.

Please add in here any ideas and concerns you have- talking to all players here- and know that the staff who are responsible for making the decision about this are reading and taking them all into account.

ALSO TO NOTE: You don't need to type in all caps to get our attention. Try just highlighting the most important parts of your argument/suggestion, it is more effective and pleasing on the eye.
 

Electrofreak

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Natures are arguably the most important part of a pokemon, along with abilities. EVs are mostly for customization purposes, whereas nature and ability are for optimization purposes. An example would be unnerve Tyranitar with an adamant nature. Adamant allows for the 10% boost to the stat, while unnerve allows tyranitar to be used on a team that would otherwise be negatively effected by sand. From here on forward, I will use Tyranitar as an example for many of the sections of my post. I intend to do so because tyranitar not only serves as a prime example of all of he topics below, but also because of its mainstream use in the OU tier.

1) Concerns with natures in general:

Natures are extremely important within the context of competitive battling. If you do not have a proper nature, even with everything else being correct, you have a useless pokemon depending just how bad that nature is. Not every pokemon is as versatile as something like Tyranitar. Tyranitar has the freedom to use many natures due to its great movepool and stat distribution. However even with a pokemon as wonderful as tyranitar, you CAN NOT use a neutral nature effectively as it is not optimal. You will always want to boost a stat and lower another depending upon your moveset and EV spread alongside your ability.

If you have a docile tyranitar (level 100) with EV investment of 252 hp 252 attack, and you are fighting a rapid spinning starmie, with a timid nature and EV investments of 252 hp and 252 speed, assuming all 31 in IVs for the sake of consistency, the tyranitar does 94.4-111.7% damage with crunch to that starmie. It has a 68.8% chance to OHKO the opposing starmie with a neutral nature.

If you take the same tyranitar, but make it adamant nature, it then does 104.3%-122.8% damage to the starmie, assuring the OHKO.

If you take a different tyranitar, with 0 ivs in attack, but with an adamant nature you then proceed to do 95-112.9% damage to the same starmie with crunch.

If you notice you do more damage with a proper nature and 0 ivs in attack, than you do with an epic attack tyranitar with a nature that is neutral to its attack.

The above example was used because tyranitar is a premier counter to starmie and is recognized as such especially in sand.

This proves indisputably that if we are not given the chance to change ability from neutral nature as it is currently, then it effectively and literally ruins any pokemon that currently exists in reference to their primary stats even if they are literally perfect 31s.

2) Concerns with 28+ Shinies:

The next question follows necessarily. "If natures are that crucial, wouldn't it just make the 28+ shinies unstoppable and unfair?" Now before I answer this, I am aware that I am speaking from the standpoint of someone who is very well off within the game. I understand the concern and it is a valid one, however, unlike the first segment, this one is not as directly detrimental to the outcome of a match.

As addressed in the first post, the nature matters more than IVs in primary stats with any significant base number behind it. How does this translate over to 28+ shinies? Well there are a few points we need to address before we get started!

A) The sweeper speed dilemma
If two pokemon such as Espeon and Gengar go head to head, what determines the victory? The Espeon has a S.T.A.B. psychic type move that is super effective vs Gengar due to it being poison type. The Gengar has a S.T.A.B. shadow ball that is super effective against Espeon. Both can OHKO each other with these respective moves. They both have the same base 110 speed, so nature is the thing that comes into play here. Gengar typically runs modest nature to handle other pokemon, whereas Espeon always runs timid. This would mean that Espeon wins this exchange 100% of the time, barring focus sash. The Gengar in this instance loses out. Now let us supposed that this Gengar is shiny and max speed, since this was a common it is fair enough to expect. This trainer knows this matchup would normally swing towards Espeon, and also knows that since Eevee is HR, that a max speed Espeon with other useable IVs are hard to get. This trainer then opts to run Timid on that Gengar, to fight espeon. This would result in a speed tie and an equal chance at moving first, or in most cases, the Gengar will then win and OHKO the Espeon.

That being said, if we are not allowed to adjust natures of old pokemon, we are actually at a disadvantage to use old IV shinies in many cases since the other player would not expect a max speed, 28+ special attack, shiny Gengar with new ivs to be in the hands of most players.

The same could be said of this Espeon. Players up until this point have had years to collect battling pokemon. If they were unable to change the nature of their Espeon that they have used in battle for years up until this point, they will always lose out vs new Gengars that are lucky enough to get timid, no matter the IVs. It essentially shifts the luck factor without removing it, undercutting the argumentation of "Catching a pokemon with good ivs should not determine the outcome of a match." This would make all old pokemon obsolete and as such make everyone start over with every pokemon they have. This does not remove the current problem but just shifts back the problem a few years.

This also gives further issues to pokemon with moves such as dragon dance. Most of the dragon dancing crew are very rare pokemon, and as such are hard to find with good overall ivs. With speed being a crucial number in calculation of dragon dance, you need to be able to hit certain thresholds in your stats. Sometimes a pokemon cannot hit a certain threshold without a 31. Prior to the EV update, a +1 dragon dance Tyranitar needed 31 ivs in speed, in order to outrun a max speed Salamence after that one dragon dance. That one IV in speed was the crucial factor where it determined whether or not a Tyranitar would be able to boost vs a Salamence. This is huge mentally as well for the Salamence player in choosing how they battle and what moves they use or if they should switch.


B)The stall/tank dilemma
Defensive oriented pokemon benefit more from generally lower IV pools and lack of natures. Defensive pokemon always have to prioritize one stat over another due to the way natures work. This means that some counters actually work or do not work, dependent upon the nature and investment of the pokemon. An example of this would be close combat from a strong fighting type vs a Snorlax with defense investment/nature not getting the OHKO, whereas if they invested specially rather than physically, it would OHKO.

Some pokemon have the ability to go defensive in either stat, such as porygon2. With eviolite, it gets monstrously high defenses. It has base 90 and 95 defenses respectively. Both are sizeable and it has a reliable recovery move. Right now, Porygon2 can just invest evently in the stats and wall just about everything because we have no opportunity cost due to natures right now. The same can be said for dusclops. This means you can play with those pokemon the same way, regardless of what you are fighting. That being said one of the major ways to counter these pokemon, is within the use of natures. Dusclops and Porygon2 both end up opting for one of the defenses and using a nature to support that defense. This means if an offensive threat that opted for the opposing offense + nature fights that pokemon, they now have an advantage they otherwise wouldn't have.

That means if you force everyone to get new pokemon, tanks will have the advantage for years since finding offensive IVs to match up with the proper natures takes much longer than versatile defensive types and also creates a higher price spike in offensive type pokemon due to the inaccessibility of these pokemon to the common player.

TL;DR Tanks will be cheaper due to having a higher versatility with natures than offensive pokemon typically do, creating imbalance within the competitive community.

C) Conclusion
28+ IV shinies are not the problem, and will not be one statistically. The amount of benefit IVs give mathematically are low, and only matter in very rare cases such as speed ties which are already rare occurrences as is. Player skill in a full battle system which includes custom set making, choice of nature, and custom ev spreads for the niche use of that pokemon, are what will determine the outcome of a battle more often than not.

Concerns for longevity of the game:
28+ shinies, as you will notice, increased shortly after the implementation of 20+ IV shinies. The prices of non-shiny epics have not changed. This means that the accumulation of 28+ shinies will become harder and harder over the years, even among past commons and event commons. (I paid 45m a few days ago for a max speed S gengar with old ivs, whereas over a year ago they were 10-15m.)

With the increased value of old iv shinies forthcoming and continuing, they will become mantles or badges of status to players. This means they will be decreasingly traded in the coming months and years. Players will be more inclined to go inactive and keep their pokemon in case they ever come back, rather than sell them for pokemoney or trade for new iv pokemon. Over the course of a few years they will cycle out more and more. Many inactive accounts are worth a ton right now with all their old S common battlers that will eventually just get deleted due to inactivity or bans in some cases.

The "problem" will fix itself given a few years by nature of economic flows. Rare shiny stuff for the most part will become less and less widespread. It wont be the norm and isn't the norm even now. It is far easier to get epic IV pokemon than their shiny counterparts for everything besides commons so it really isn't an issue to begin with. It is also cheaper.

TL;DR This means that the amount of old iv shinies in use, will drop with time, and the longer 20+ ivs are implemented, we will experience crowding out in the market place, causing the standard to become 20+. Once this crowding out occurs, the downfall of 28+ begins since no one will trade them unless it is for something extremely rare. (This is already happening for R+ shinies.) I just had the displeasure of spending 130m on a max speed S arcanine yesterday because of how rare they are now. Just a year ago they were only 35-40m.

Concerns for player approval and interaction:
If we are not given the ability to change nature, it ruins all of our pokemon for the people who have been here for years. It also requires us to essentially start over having nothing to show for it in terms of the competitive scene. We would all have to go re-hunt for literally every pokemon we own since neutral natures are never used for anything.

Most of us enjoy our time here very much, and we would like to move forward with the game in a way that we can all learn from one another. Battles are a way to match wits and learn about our own personal play styles. As new players join, they can spend some time getting a team, and learn how things work. After they find some favorites or have a few goals in mind, they can then spend a lot of time perfecting their team and working on those goals like many of us have done for years. The reality of always finding something better and having a goal to achieve is what keeps players working on MMOs. Everyone wants to achieve the dream "to be the very best, like no one ever was."


P.S.
I got tired halfway through this monster, so please be charitable to potential misunderstandings. I will supply responses upon request or clarifications where needed.



TL;DR
Let us change natures and abilities but make it something to work towards, just like hunting is working towards finding that special pokemon.
 

Electrofreak

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Again, I would like to restate that I do not think changing natures should be easy, and instead it should take time and meaningful effort towards a goal. Instant gratification does not add depth to game-play.
 

Sylpharionz

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I agree that Nature is necessary, and I also agree that changing nature should be allowed in game, and that it shouldn't be made easy as well. Perhaps we can even implement a daily limit for changing nature of any poke? Something similar to collecting Quartz for the move Stealth Rock now, except maybe make the quest more flavorful for the type of nature to change into (more interesting quests, better for players).
 

fableboy

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guys thanks for your comments,

electro i agree with point u made about old iv shinies being over powerful,but dont fight a gengar with a gengar or a gengar with a espy,ofc the better speed wins,match a old iv gengar vs a tyra with bad ivs,thats how to battle,ivs dont decide the battle not even evs,a fully ev trained s gyara cant kill a non ev trained faster jolt,thats the matchups(u your self mentioned that theese are rare cases abt espy vs gengar,just give them sashes,gengar wins using suckerpunch in the next move,so a pokemon moveset can change the course of battle too..so the thing is using right item,right nature,right evs on a certian pokemon that matches your team..

i also agree with the fact of shiny salamance all 28+ being too powerfull with moxie and stuff but that goes true for a normal non shiny sala aswell+howmany ppl have a shiny sala 28+ :q

the ivs of the pokes are not the consern its the nature ofc nature is 10% but it can afffect a poke performence and value both alot

i would also like to say that changing natures shoudnt be that hard,imagine somone has like 50 pokes in his box which needs nature change xd its gonna take months if it takes time to change nature of 1 poke,a lazy guy like me depended upon vitamins to train evs until i bought those 6 power items,i dont mind spending money on the items but not time on evs xd
 

Zooks

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Not much else for me to add here. This is an MMO - customization should be very much available to players, with the obvious aspect of making said customization difficult to achieve. Whether making it a time consuming quest/expensive/a one time use to be able to change natures on a pokemon, the option should be there considering how a big part of PWO is that it's not easy to obtain that pokemon you are striving for - therefore making its overall value to the trainer increase. I agree with everything that was said in previous posts.
 

Electrofreak

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sule-the-mighty said:
guys thanks for your comments,

electro i agree with point u made about old iv shinies being over powerful,but dont fight a gengar with a gengar or a gengar with a espy,ofc the better speed wins,match a old iv gengar vs a tyra with bad ivs,thats how to battle,ivs dont decide the battle not even evs,a fully ev trained s gyara cant kill a non ev trained faster jolt,thats the matchups(u your self mentioned that theese are rare cases abt espy vs gengar,just give them sashes,gengar wins using suckerpunch in the next move,so a pokemon moveset can change the course of battle too..so the thing is using right item,right nature,right evs on a certian pokemon that matches your team..

i also agree with the fact of shiny salamance all 28+ being too powerfull with moxie and stuff but that goes true for a normal non shiny sala aswell+howmany ppl have a shiny sala 28+ :q

the ivs of the pokes are not the consern its the nature ofc nature is 10% but it can afffect a poke performence and value both alot


If you read what I said, I was saying old iv shinies are NOT overpowered, in light of proper switching and full battle systems.
 

fableboy

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your text is such long i must have miss understood the 28 ivs part hahaha xd,atleast we agree on the shiny 28 ivs being not overpowered
 

Electrofreak

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sule-the-mighty said:
your text is such long i must have miss understood the 28 ivs part hahaha xd,atleast we agree on the shiny 28 ivs being not overpowered

It's cool bro. Just for the record though, IVs only matter in those rare instances because IVs don't effect many crucial things that often. That being said, saying "just don't do X" implies that you have an option to do otherwise which is not always the case. That is literally like saying "just outplay the opponent every time" without taking into account the variables in current game-state. It offers nothing in terms of argument and is just a rhetorical assertion that shows ignorance to the point of what I posted in the first place and why I made the point.

A person needs to have the capacity to predict and make proper guesses on the held items and natures, not just prepare them with sets, items and nature. Counter-play and prediction are the majority of what determines a pokemon battle. The point is you cannot have mind games if you cannot change natures. People will know that your pokemon will not win and there is no guesswork involved if they are familiar with you as a trainer and what you own, since this is a MMO after all.
 

Poisonivy

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[glow=darkred]I think Natures is a good idea. Would be nice to see more stuff being added to the game. ^-^[/glow]
 

Sylpharionz

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Speaking about choosing nature, I would also love to see options for choosing ability as well, currently all pokes are locked into their first ability (which are not very good for some). Similar quests for switching ability/nature can be implemented as well.
 

Electrofreak

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Sylpharionz said:
Speaking about choosing nature, I would also love to see options for choosing ability as well, currently all pokes are locked into their first ability (which are not very good for some). Similar quests for switching ability/nature can be implemented as well.

I would agree with this, although I feel like it should take more than a simple quest. You shouldn't be able to change a pokemon's nature/ability to correlate with one another in only a few hours. It should be a process that takes a few days for each pokemon, assuming you play 2-3 hours each day.

If modification was too easy then it would not be that meaningful, similar to how if leveling was too easy no one would need a daycare service or EV training services.
 

fableboy

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actually most of us would do anything for their worthy pokes,like their main 6 pokes they would do the quest,no matter how long it is,but for their other pokes they would not do the quest and most likely will sell them for a fair price,this is good for pwo aswell,ppl here are wandering with millions and nothing good to buy,this will also give the new commers to get their hands on atleast some old shiny common battlers,

example,a shiny zubat all 28 ivs is trash for me in my box,so i woudnt waste time on changing its abbility or anything,i would simple gift or sell it to a new commer,how ever,its a treasure for a new commer and a good battler aswell,he will do the quest and change its abbility and make it a poke for his first battling team,same goes for worthy pokes like a drago that u dont feel like doing quest for,or espeon or some worthy shiny..i hope u guys agree with this idea too....

if ppl will sell their good pokes the game iwll be more intresting aswell,i had 300m a week and looking to buy something nice,but it took me days to find some good pokes that too for a fairly high price,in other words i overpaid to the owners to sell their pokes,this can be solved by the long quest thing
 

Sylpharionz

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Electrofreak said:
Sylpharionz said:
Speaking about choosing nature, I would also love to see options for choosing ability as well, currently all pokes are locked into their first ability (which are not very good for some). Similar quests for switching ability/nature can be implemented as well.

I would agree with this, although I feel like it should take more than a simple quest. You shouldn't be able to change a pokemon's nature/ability to correlate with one another in only a few hours. It should be a process that takes a few days for each pokemon, assuming you play 2-3 hours each day.

If modification was too easy then it would not be that meaningful, similar to how if leveling was too easy no one would need a daycare service or EV training services.

Well like I said about nature change as well, we can always implement a daily limit (of a maximum 1 ability/nature change globally, across all pokemons you own).
 

Sylpharionz

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sule-the-mighty said:
actually most of us would do anything for their worthy pokes,like their main 6 pokes they would do the quest,no matter how long it is,but for their other pokes they would not do the quest and most likely will sell them for a fair price,this is good for pwo aswell,ppl here are wandering with millions and nothing good to buy,this will also give the new commers to get their hands on atleast some old shiny common battlers,

example,a shiny zubat all 28 ivs is trash for me in my box,so i woudnt waste time on changing its abbility or anything,i would simple gift or sell it to a new commer,how ever,its a treasure for a new commer and a good battler aswell,he will do the quest and change its abbility and make it a poke for his first battling team,same goes for worthy pokes like a drago that u dont feel like doing quest for,or espeon or some worthy shiny..i hope u guys agree with this idea too....

if ppl will sell their good pokes the game iwll be more intresting aswell,i had 300m a week and looking to buy something nice,but it took me days to find some good pokes that too for a fairly high price,in other words i overpaid to the owners to sell their pokes,this can be solved by the long quest thing

Well for me personally, I collect those good pokes (only non shiny though) so I won't be selling them away except trading for a better same poke :) But I get your point, I also have your problem, sitting with 600m and nothing to buy...
 

Caliphate

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Natures should be randomized properly. Do them properly or don't do them at all simple as that. We have like what? 50 players active or even less. Ability to change natures won't benefit to new players in any way it would be one of the major obstacles to them. Ability to change natures would only benefit to players who stockpiled pokemons for a while now due to staff being too vocal and loud on this matter letting them know what the case will be. No matter how you look at it Sule-the-mighty, this will be most likely a decision of a single Developer and few supporters of theirs. Sadly, it's being more talked about this on social sites where staff are hanging out rather than on forums itself. After all, this is a pokemon game and it should remain like that. Too much experimenting and you eventually get the situation like it is now. :)
 

Killua-

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I'm supporting the idea of changing natures 100%
People spent a lot of time and money on this game, and old players like us cannot afford to lose our most expensive precious pokes that god knows how hard it was to get them just because of getting the wrong nature
Please make the game flexible like you did with the Pokemon moves ( changing them through the PDex ), why not natures too?
And like sule presented, this game has no breeding system. so being able to change poke natures is only fair

Thanks sule for posting this important topic ^-^
 

Zooks

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********* said:
Natures should be randomized properly. Do them properly or don't do them at all simple as that. We have like what? 50 players active or even less. Ability to change natures won't benefit to new players in any way it would be one of the major obstacles to them. Ability to change natures would only benefit to players who stockpiled pokemons for a while now due to staff being too vocal and loud on this matter letting them know what the case will be. No matter how you look at it Sule-the-mighty, this will be most likely a decision of a single Developer and few supporters of theirs. Sadly, it's being more talked about this on social sites where staff are hanging out rather than on forums itself. After all, this is a pokemon game and it should remain like that. Too much experimenting and you eventually get the situation like it is now. :)

I'm sorry but I just don't buy your argument. How would ability alteration effect a newer player in any way? A brand new player doesn't need natures/abities at all, when their main objective of the game is to simply just complete the gyms and train the pokes they have to reach max level. The point to where abilities matter doesn't really have an effect until you get to higher level battling. We see the same situation with IV's and EV's - as those things have little no importance to someone just trying to reach late game. If you have at least a vague grasp of the mechanics in PWO, you would understand that obtaining actual viable pokes of value/battle capability is infinitely more difficult than any other game, including handhelds. Randomized natures would skyrocket the process in which a person could find a viable pokemon, making it practically impossible for a new player to start building a proper team, and ruining veterans alike. However I might add I hold even a stronger belief in that nature/ability alteration should be either be made a one time use, or much longer than a day - I feel like if that were possible, every day you could have a different functioning team of the same 6 pokes - giving less incentive to going out and hunting for new pokemon entirely.
 
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