non-profit?

[MikeO37]

Did not know that "supposed" non prodit organizations charged money for memberships?!! and worked alongside botijo. Seems kind of suspicious to me

 

[Naero]

Technically, money is not directly exchanged for membership; tokens are, which does not not necessarily make it a monetary transaction. Furthermore, monetary donations may be used to donate for tokens, but more or less tokens are just to be considered a form of gratitude in return for the donations.

Albeit, regardless of the true semantics intended for PWO's donation system, it is natural for the psychological contract of donating players to differ. However, the donated money is ultimately intended to only be used for the server upkeep (to pay the server rent), rather than to be used as a profitable income of any sorts to the project's management/staff - therefore, it is fair to label the project as nonprofit, nonetheless.

 

[MikeO37]

Wow, thats false. People are exchanging real money for commodities in the form of rare/un-catchable pokemon and memberships. This psychological contract you speak of does not matter in the legal sense of the term. A donation is meant to be freely given money which there is nothing expected in return. As it is now, people are ONLY donating because they are getting something back from PWO. You make a convincing argument to somebody of no intelligence, but underneath all your words; there is simply no legitimacy to your argument. Just admit, the donation system is actually a store. people exchange money for commodities. Its basic economics, look up Karl Marx then come talk to me.

 

[Naero]

People are exchanging real money for commodities in the form of rare/un-catchable pokemon and memberships.

Tokens are exchanged for content on the token store. Although tokens are gifted in return for donations, it doesn't bind real money to tokens in the sense of token store currency; after all, such currency can be obtained by other means (i.e.: a contest that rewards tokens, or as a pardon for bigger extremities of downtime in the past).

This psychological contract you speak of does not matter in the legal sense of the term. A donation is meant to be freely given money which there is nothing expected in return. As it is now, people are ONLY donating because they are getting something back from PWO.

This is true that many players regard donations with utmost return consideration, rather than genuinely intending to benefit the cause (i.e: going to the server upkeep). However, there is nothing wrong with returning gifts in return for a donation. Blood donors are typically promised cookies and/or t-shirts in return for a donation; this does not alter the allocations of such donations, namely going to the cause of the donation. Likewise, the intended use of donation money is solely to go to the server upkeep, to continually pay for the server rent.

Just admit, the donation system is actually a store. people exchange money for commodities.

The token store is a store indeed, but to that store, tokens are the currency of it, which are credited to a player's account in gratitude of a donation. Regardless of the primary means of receiving tokens, I'd like to reiterate that the donees do not use the donated money for personal use, but rather for the server upkeep, thus it is not necessarily a profitable project.

 

[Jinji]

It should be noted that for half of PWO's life, Tokens were not offered at all; yet donating for the upkeep of the game has always been a service offered. We are also within the right to remove the offer of Tokens in future; however this is a right we'd prefer not to exercise, as we members of PWO's Staff Team care greatly for our community.

 

[MikeO37]

The server upkeep price is not set, nor disclosed by the organization. It is safe to assume that if there were NO donations, there would still be a server! Your blood donation comment was terrible by the way. Cookies and T-shirts are also donations made by partner companies to assist these programs. People donate blood to help people, NOT to receive a stupid cookie. It is all about intent That is in fact a non-profit organization. If you offered rewards, such as hats or visual changes for a character; that would suffice! In this sense, donaters do not appropriate any commodity which creates any advantageous implications towards the game itself. These tokens are used as currency in the game; a trading commodity with use and exchange value! Are you blind, or just ignorant to the reality of the situation? You are simply masking the reality with the word "donate." Which anybody with an IQ over 10 should be able to figure out! Personal message me if you can help me to solve my little problem ( i hope you know what I mean)...If not, keep attempting to win an argument that cannot be won on here

 

[Pokegirl1999]

is the game ilegal? I want 2 play but i dont use money...thats fine i think, please some1 let me no!?!?!?

 

[CheckeredZebra]

I can promise you I haven't seen a dang cent for my hundreds of hours poured into this game. If I learned somebody else was getting something, I'd beat them up. =P

Furthermore, just to sink into the argument, people donate blood knowing they're possibly saving lives. There is a satisfaction involved in that; a kind that goes much further than "I'm keeping an online game up for another month."
I've donated to this game myself. Was it just because tokens were offered? Yes. But at the same time, I do understand what that donation does and how it helps this game. It is clearly labeled EVERYWHERE.

You can also argue about the psychology of what a "donation" or a "purchase" is, but realize that no matter what the buyer thinks, no active staff are paid. This is not a "for profit" organization. If it was, staff would be seeing cash for personal use.

There have been several topics pointing fingers at staff and going "This doesn't add up!" Which is fine, because everyone needs a watchdog! =) Just please don't go their route and angrily dismiss all points brought up.

And to answer the above post, you do not have to give a cent to PWO in order to play the game or enjoy it. We pride ourselves on the fact that, if a player is dedicated enough, they can reasonably attain fortune.

 

[HitmonFonty]

I've been playing nearly three and a half years and only a couple of months of that with membership or donating. I only really got ms because of bonus tokens won and awarded to my account over time and continued on since buying membership because I found the game more enjoyable with it.

I would imagine a lot of places you donate to give little packages similar to the blood banks. When I joined a local Vegetarian group I got various things probably easily covering the small amount I donated to them for membership. Non profit services simply cannot run without donations, it's as simple as that. PWO needs the donations, why would they be stingy and not provide some gift in return for the people who are willing and able to put towards the project?

Nobody gets paid, people volunteer their time to this game and many are dedicated to keep it running as well as possible and make it better all the time. Your criticism of the donation system which pays the bills so we can play almost 24/7 these days is, to put it very mildly, misplaced.

 

[HitmonFonty]

is the game ilegal? I want 2 play but i dont use money...thats fine i think, please some1 let me no!?!?!?

Donations are optional. The owners have said this game will always be free to play.

The game does use copyrighted material but is run from a server in Sweden where copyright laws are not in effect. So I believe it is legal to run the game, however I'm no lawyer so I don't know if it's legal for us in countries where the copyright laws are in force for us to actually play it.

 

[MikeO37]

You are both wrong. They are simply disguising these things as donations. As i stated earlier, it is all about INTENT! Read before you write please. I understand that pwo needs donations, but they are doing it wrong. People BUY tokens, they do not donate for the sake of donating/contributing to the development of the game. Also, many Admin's and Gm's are not from Sweden, which would therefore make them guilty, even if Swedish laws would not implement them. However, Copyright laws are an International affair. One cannot break them imply because they live in Sweden; please do your research before making uneducated judgements on the topic. Lets face it, the tokens are used as currency. They are used to MAKE people donate. Just because it says "donate", does not make it acceptable! People who use real money are given an unfair advantage. In order to compete, more and more players are forced to use real money. Stop grasping at straws to confirm your theory. Confirmation bias can be a very dangerous thing. Change your perspective temporarily and you will see that I am in fact, correct! Have a nice day.....PS, admin's/GM's I am still awaiting that personal message.......I suggest you send 1 soon

 

[HitmonFonty]

So you can't be wrong hey? Nice ego there, nearly as good as mine. But if you're not going to change your perspective why do you expect us to. I'm comfortable in what I believe is right here and you're just repeating the same tired things we already did actually read.
And as we've already answered them I won't bother repeating myself by doing it again.

I will say however that the game IS based in Sweden and is breaking no laws in Sweden- international or otherwise. And if you do your research I think you'll find that Nintendo cannot have their copyright laws automatically cover a country that does not opt into Copyright laws. Nintendo doesn't actually own the world and cannot dictate what laws each country has to follow funnily enough. O0

 

[MikeO37]

Where did you read that? Law for idiots....The simple fact is that that you are wrong, and I will show you why. Why you assume a first world country such as Sweden lacks Copyright laws is beyond me. Almost every country in the world has laws that protect people's work. Now, if you simply open google, or yahoo you can easily search this up. However, I can see that you are all to busy making up things to actually go and take the 3 minutes to do a little research. I took the time to do it for you.

http://www.government.se/sb/d/2707/a/15195

Now, critique it all you want, but this is just a summary of there laws. If you want to poke holes in it, I can easily go and find a copy of the actual documents and copy and paste that as well. On the other hand, it might just be easier for you to admit you were wrong.

Furthermore, I have changed my perspective and viewed the situation through your eyes. I see a good idea, a great idea. However, it is not a unique idea. I admit, funding would be great to support another server. However, you never disclosed funding to the general PWO users. WE understand what you claim to do with the money, but we have no disclosure as to the amounts you are obtaining, from whom, and what exactly is happening with such funds. I am sorry, but PWO took a very risky approach in the way the donation system works. "Donate and you will gain fortune, pokemon etc." That really seems like a legitimate donation....Note my sarcasm

 

[HitmonFonty]

There is more to read about this subject than just the page you googled. And while reading up does show that Sweden has tried to take a stronger anti-piracy stance in recent years, it still doesn't appear to be very far reaching beyond a couple of publicised court cases. And as long as PWO remains non profit, which they don't have to prove to you personally to be so, I still feel they are on fairly safe ground where they are.

 

[Merse]

The game does use copyrighted material but is run from a server in Sweden where copyright laws are not in effect. So I believe it is legal to run the game, however I'm no lawyer so I don't know if it's legal for us in countries where the copyright laws are in force for us to actually play it.

This statement in this form is not true. There ARE copyright laws in Sweden, but the Swedish legal system is different from the legal systems of other countries, so PWO can use copyrighted materials as a non-profit organization on Swedish servers without risking a lawsuit by Nintendo. There are several other countries where otherwise "illegal" services can be run from servers without any harm, like Ukraine, Russia, or Belarus.


No wto Mike's fantasy: Swedish law says that you may use copyrighted materials as long as you make it available for free to everyone, so you don't make it to earn profit. PWO is free to play. You don't have to get tokens to play the game, to face gymleaders, to level your team to 99. You don't even need tokens to find shinys (you can find them without MS too) or UC Pokes (you can buy them for Pokemoney from other players), so you can have everything that donators can with their tokens. PWO doesn't offer anything in exchange for donation which you couldn't get without donation, tokens just make it easier to get them. So PWO is not violating the Swedish copyright law.
Tokens are just something in return from the developers to express their gratitude for your support.

Sorry, man, you may twist is as you want, PWO is not illegal in Sweden.

 

[MikeO37]

You may be correct about that particular legal definition, but the application of it is extremely flawed. You say PWO presents its material in a free and fair manner to all users. This is not the case. I understand that players can obtain anything through trades. However, this does not make the playing field level. Users who purchase things are obviously at an extreme advantage. Even five dollars can easily double, or even triple one users $$$$$$$ in the blink of an eye. Can PWO honestly prove that not a single cent went towards personal gain? The burden of proof just requires that something is probable. In North America, we know this as "Beyond a reasonable doubt" IF you did not notice, another pokemon game was recently shut down. Large corporations would obviously demolish every one of us in a court of law, in almost any situation. They have power, lawyers, and ownership of the product. EVEN in sweden, Nintendo has the right to...allow or disallow others from distributing or copying their product, That is not exact, but thats generally the definition....It is on the link from my last comment. If you notice on Pokemon products, they have a little copyright note which states that it is not available for re-distribution. THAT is where Nintendo prohibits the use of its material. Nintendo IS the creator, and prohibits its products reproduction...Which means, this game is in fact not allowed to be ran in Sweden for the simple fact that the rights are protected and prohibited from being used. Ill just post the quote so you can all see it

""""""the right to permit or prohibit reproduction of the work'"""""

This is a small piece taken from the Swedish govermnets' website concerning Copyright Law....Still think you are right?

 

[Maideza]

It's always amusing when someone starts drama like this.

However, the amusement stopped when I realised you probably are just hurt about something staff did(n't do).

Or

Too much Phoenix Wright

 

[Bluerise]

However, you never disclosed funding to the general PWO users. WE understand what you claim to do with the money, but we have no disclosure as to the amounts you are obtaining, from whom, and what exactly is happening with such funds.

I've given out general ideas of costs and how much donations we have received in the past. A few of the previous staff members have also done so in the past. ~

 

[HeavyPetter]

I think you're all a bit too harsh in rejecting Mikes arguments. He has a very valid point when he says that no-one is donating to PWO, everyone are buying a product, and if you really want to be 'somebody' in the game you must buy membership. Saying anything else is just word-play. It's also quite hard (despite what above posters are saying) for the average player to get an overview of the incomes and expenses of the "PWO organization". Perhaps you could make a thread giving a quick overview of the money flow and update it once a month or so. It wouldn't be very much work. Furthermore: I think many of the above posters have a very weird view of the Swedish legal system. Even comparing Sweden to Belarus or any other semi-totalitaric state is just outrageous.

 

[CheckeredZebra]

Dang, ya'll. We have like 3 arguments going on at once. For the sake of keeping myself sane, I'm only going to focus on 2.

1. Purchasing vs. Donation
2. Balance between "Free to play, fun to pay" and "Free to play, but not fun till you pay"

I've donated to this game myself. Was it just because tokens were offered? Yes. But at the same time, I do understand what that donation does and how it helps this game. It is clearly labeled EVERYWHERE.

I point to this again. Is it our fault when a player is self-ignorant? We HAVE put out numbers before, in fact the monthly amount was public for a while because anyone could add up the total themselves. There used to be a Server FAQ around that explained server costs, even.

Furthermore, even if we call it a donation and people think it's a purchase, its not as if we say "Oh sorry you're out of luck we can screw you out of your charity cause WE DON'T OWE YOU A CENT. MWANAHA!" No. Normally, if there is an issue and we can comfirm there is one, the donators are either transferred their tokens or are given a refund.

If a player:

* thinks "I'm getting these for tokens"
*is acceptably handled if something goes wrong

and the staff:
*do not see a cent of the money
*because the funds simply go straight to the mechanical of upkeep for PWO...

Why does the intention of the donator matter? Nobody making this game is seeing a cent, and the money is still going where it should and it is stated everywhere where said money is going. People who are "buying" the tokens might even care less where the money is going than those who acknowledge it is a donation.

Could we be money-grubbers only out for a quick buck? Yeah, we could. But if we were, why would staff THINK about doing something that could hurt donations?

(EDIT: forum link is here cause forums are being silly with bbcode:
forum.pokemonworldonline.net/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=17141 )

Wouldn't that go against making a profit? It would be the complete opposite of these illicit motives you are saying we have.

You ever tried one of those "Free to play, not fun till you pay" games? PWO is a far cry from those games. Go look at Gaiaonline, Adventure Quest, Farmville, etc. THOSE are "fun to pay" games.

IF we wanted to be greedy, we could do this:
-Make shinies catchable ONLY to members
-Make OP exclusive areas with tons of UC pokemon only to members
-Give members a discount on changing attacks
-Sell shiny UCs
-under the table, avoid banning donators
-Nerf non-members chances of getting good things.
- Make surfboard, inter-regional travel, or the bike member/donator only.

Instead, there have been lengthy discussions involving the opposite that pertain to keeping the game balanced in its encounter rates, economy, and fairness to non-donating players.