Ingame TMs

[Arnie]

As a result of a lengthy ingame discussion with several players and a couple of staff with regards to available TMs to buy i decided to write a topic for people to voice their opinions and reasoning behing what TMs would be most beneficial to be added to purchase.

So ill start off:

Thunderbolt - TM24

why thunderbolt may people ask...well its not Thunder for starters XP, but i believe this TM would bring something into the game to go along with the other current TMs Ice Beam, Flamethrower, Solarbeam etc, you can see where im going with this right? there isnt currently an electric TM obtainable but i believe that with adding Thunderbolt there would be a little extra variety to battles. Sure it might give Starmie some unneeded power but there would be other pokes to take it down quicker, Jolteon...dare i say it even electrode?

Earthquake - TM26

Now this one stirred up much debate. the problem with this TM is that it would give Metagross even more hold over the battle scene than it already has. however i believe that that drawback doesnt outweigh the benefits of other pokemon being able to learn it, Tauros for example. its relatively strong, its fast yet it has no decent non-normal physical move. people were talking about metagross counters (and rightly so because with pursuit being overpowered and wrongly boosted it is needed). The fact is Earthquake is a powerful standard attack with no added effects. nothings gonna change that fact.

anyway opinions welcome

 

[KaiReborn]

IMO that's a rather simplistic view. Let me point you to these two topics that elaborate on the impact and meaningfulness some moves would have on the battle scene

 

[Orean]

Earthquake - TM26

Now this one stirred up much debate. the problem with this TM is that it would give Metagross even more hold over the battle scene than it already has. however i believe that that drawback doesnt outweigh the benefits of other pokemon being able to learn it, Tauros for example. its relatively strong, its fast yet it has no decent non-normal physical move. people were talking about metagross counters (and rightly so because with pursuit being overpowered and wrongly boosted it is needed). The fact is Earthquake is a powerful standard attack with no added effects. nothings gonna change that fact.

anyway opinions welcome

I've raised this up in-game, but to get the ball rolling on a forums discussion (where it will be kept on record): will Metagross be buffed up by the addition of this TM more than it will be countered by all of the Pokemon that will pick up the Earthquake TM? I'm not trying to insinuate it will, but I believe it is important food for discussion in the context of how much ground Metagross already seems to have claimed in the PvP scene; even if other Pokemon may indeed be buffed by learning the TM, it's hard for me to see much more diversification in the PvP scene if one of the "overused" Pokemon gains more ground in it.

 

[KaiReborn]

The way I see it it would mean losing agility or a coverage move, so it wouldn't become uncounterable imo. However, if metagross is indeed an issue then maybe steel type could be updated to gen 6 standards, where it loses its resistance to ghost and dark type moves

 

[The-Predator]

I dont see a problem with metagross adquiring eq, it means other pokemon would be able to get it, and of course some of em would be able to come back to battle scene, have u guys thought about a blastoise tanking jolt´s discharge then using eq?? or how about sending charizard against metagross?? what damage could metagross deal?, even sceptile would be dealing good damage against those fire pokemon, problem is all battlers focus on same common pokemon that are used for battle at the moment. tauros could be a dangerous pokemon since is a fast and powerful pokemon and the only counter i can think of atm would be heracross though im sure there are more than hera, I see eq and thunderbolt like the ones are needed in PWO to make some pokemon just useful in battle

 

[CheckeredZebra]

I'm doing math with pokemon that learn Flamethrower or EQ. This was done with Smogon's Damage Calculator so some numbers may not be 100%. This assumes both pokemon have Max IVs, no natures and are using the best move for the situation. (So in zard vs. Meta, Zard will use flamethrower over EQ).

Might've made some mistakes so if something seems like it should live, double check me here: http://www.smogon.com/calc/
Meteor Mash kills many rock types
Pursuit renders most psychic types pointless + gets in last shots rendering some counters impossible
Zen Headbutt makes most fighting types pointless
Hammer Arm kills most normal or dark type EQers
Earthquake will kill Electric Flamethrowers and several fires.

We're doing this by rounds.
Round one: Meta without a +1 attack boost.

Spoiler: Meta with No Att boost

Venusaur- dies to Zen Headbutt
Charizard- lives
Blastoise- Depends on luck but Meta has slightly higher chances of winning
Arbok- SO DEAD
Nidoking- Very dead
Dugtrio- Dead
Primeape- Dead
Poliwrath- Dead
Machamp- Dead
Golem- Dead
Slowbro- Risky with Hydro Pump vs. Pursuit- not reliable
Marowak- dead
Hitmonchan- so very dead
Hitmonlee- Also very dead
Rhydon- loses because Meta will go first
Lickitung- Unsurprisingly dead
Chansey- dead
Kangaskan- dead
Tauros- dead (come on, guys. Hammer Arm. People discussed him as a counter but there's no way.)
Gyarados- depends on luck by gyarados has the slight advantage
Aerodactyl- very dead
snorlax- dead
Dragonite- Survives!
Meganium- dead
Typhlosion- Survives!
Feraligatr- Survives
Sudowoodo- dead
Politoed- dead
slowking- dead
Girafarig- dead
Forretress- Lives!
Gligar- comes down to luck but meta has the advantage
Steelix- Survives! But barely
Granbull- Hammer Arm. Enough said.
Shuckle- lolno
Ursaring- dead
Magcargo- It didn't win before anyway, but with EQ now it REALLY can't.
Corsola- dead
Mantine- dead
Donphan- Lives!
Stantler- Dies!
Hitmontop- dead
Milktank- dead
Blissey- dead
Tyranitar- dead
Sceptile- completely dead
Blaziken- MIGHT win but not reliable. Two words: Zen Headbutt
Swampert- Lives!
Slaking- not allowed to learn TMs and is banned from most battles. If it could learn EQ, it would win.
Exploud- dead
Hariyama- R.I.P
Nosepass- dead
Aggron- dead
Swalot- dead
Sharpedo- Hammer arm ANNIHILATES it.
Wailord- very risky with hyrdo pump, not reliable
Camerupt- A victim of earthquake
Flygon- lives
Altaria- dead
Seviper- dead. destroyed, actually
Lunatone- Dead
Solrock- dead
Whiscash- Survives! but barely
Claydol- dead
Cradilly- dead
Armaldo- dead
Dusknoir- dead
Tropius- dead
Glalie- dead
Walrein- dead
Relicanth- dead
Salamence- Survives!
Metagross- depends on luck, obviously
Mamoswine- Survives!
Clefable- dead
Ninetails- Survives! (REQUIRES max IVs, as Meta can take up to 97.8% health from it)
Wigglytuff- dead
Arcanine- Survives!
Rapidash- Not reliable (victim of earthquake)
Muk- dead
weezing- dead
Magmar- dead (Victim of EQ)
Flareon- dead
Furret- dead
Togekiss- Might live
Octillery- Luck
Houndoom- dead via hammer arm or EQ
Mawile- dead
Manetric- dead (victim of earthquake)
Zangoose- dead
Castform- dead
Kecleon- dead
Absol- dead
Quagsire- Lives!

ROUND 1 SURVIVORS:
Gyarados
Charizard
Marowak
Dragonite
Typhlosion
Feraligatr
Forretress
Steelix
Donphan
Swampert
Slaking
Flygon
Whiscash
Mamoswine
Ninetails (BARELY)
Octillery
Quagsire
Arcanine

Counters gained (Can't learn EQ without TM):
2 (Gyara and Fera)

Counters lost to EQ:
3 (Manetric, Rapidash, Magmar)

Round 2: Meta with +1 attack boost from Meteor Mash (fairly common occurrence):

Spoiler: +1 Attack

Gyarados- Still lives but it's 50/50
Zard- still lives
drago- still lives
Typhlosion- dies
Forretress- dies
Steelix- dies
Donphan- dies
Swampert- dies if unlucky
Slaking- still lives
Flygon- lives
whiscash- dies
Mamoswine- no longer reliable
Ninetails (kinda)- Definitely dead (victim of EQ + att boost)
Octillery- No longer reliable
Quagsire- lives
Arcanine- dies

ROUND 3 SURVIVORS:
Gyarados (will be made nearly extinct with thunderbolt, rock slide issues)
Charizard (thunderbolt/rock-type issues)
Dragonite
Swampert (kinda)
Quagsire (unlikely to be used)

Round 4: Rock Slide and Pursuit

Spoiler

EDIT: The survivors are thinned out even more.
Gyara killed by rockslide + pursuit
Dragonite likely killed by rockslide + pursuit
Charizard killed by Rock Slide

ROUND 3 SURVIVORS:
Ultimate Survivor List:
Swampert
Quagsire

Counters gained (Don't learn EQ without TM):
0
Counters lost to EQ/Pursuit/RockSlide that could survive the + att boost otherwise:
7 (Ninetails, Manetric, Drago, Zard, Arcanine, Typhlosion, Gyarados)[/spoiler]

Summary:
Under normal circumstances, we will lose more reliable counters (Dragonite, Manetric, Gyarados) than we gain (none).
Under barely-lucky circumstances for the meta, we lose all OU counters for Metagross, retaining only Swampert and Quagsire.
With EQ, Metagross can now decimate electric types and parahax will not save them/they cannot annoy the meta now.

 

[crenel]

Zebra, that's an incredibly interesting analysis, but it's discussing five different moves.

How do things change when you factor in needing to abandon one of the four five moves, and are there any new potential counters opened up in this way?

In other words, would introducing Earthquake improve team composition and improve viability, thus making Metagross harder to use without support? Or does it ultimately not factor in at all?

Can all of those same Pokemon be eliminated effectively by only two or three of Metagross's moves?

 

[CheckeredZebra]

Why thank you. *Bows*

And yes, I did consider the fact that there are now five moves. However, because I personally don't use Metagross, and that this was a more scientific look at EQ, I left all options in. However, I should've left in which moves killed which pokemon; would've made guessing much more accurate.

For the most part however, it's either Hammer Arm or Zen Headbutt. And that choice will likely come down to whatever is seen more in battle. Hint: right now, it's not fighting types and it probably won't be for a while due to the moves they learn. Many are inaccurate, have low BP, lower stats, or have a -1 priority (Revenge, Cross Chop, Close combat, etc).

EDIT: And poison types just don't have the system to support how they're supposed to work (eg: Toxic).

 

[Krowe]

Assuming that the Fairy type is added in and that the Steel type is nerfed (6th gen balancing), how would that affect things?

Metagross would now be weak to Dark and Ghost types, and would possibly need to use Meteor Mash to get past potentially-new checks in Granbull, Clefable, Togetic, Mr. Mime, Azumarill, and Gardevoir. Granted, of those only Gardevoir really has the speed and bulk necessary to keep up, but a 4x resistance to Hammer Arm, 2x resistance to Zen Headbutt, neutrality to Pursuit, neutrality to Earthquake and weakness to Meteor Mash is an odd enough setup to throw a wrench into the mix.

Additionally, how would that affect Pokemon such as Gengar or Houndoom, which are much faster and can take advantage of Metagross's weaker Special Defense stat and Ghost/Dark weaknesses? (Shadow Ball and Snarl, respectively, assuming Snarl works and is a TM.)

 

[EcoWOLFrb]

ROUND 3 SURVIVORS:
Gyarados (will be made nearly extinct with thunderbolt)
Charizard (thunderbolt/rock-type issues)
Dragonite
typhlosion
feraligatr
Swampert (kinda)
Quagsire (unlikely to be used)
Arcanine

Counters gained (Don't learn EQ without TM):
2 (Gyarados, Feraligatr)
Counters lost to EQ that could survive the + att boost otherwise:
2 (Ninetails, Manetric)[/spoiler]

First of all I'd like to applaud your hard work, I know this list took a lot of time. That being said I'd like to just make some corrections factoring the problem that we have which is pursuit. This is one of the biggest problems in battle right now and is essentially the reason meta is considered OP currently. Pursuit being priority in PWO is BEYOND ridiculous simply because in PWO switching is taboo, which is the only way pursuit becomes priority. Not only that but it's given an extra 20 power automatically. Regardless, here are the problems I see (assuming metagross is at full health, with an attack boost which happens fairly often)

-Dragonite- boosted atk Metagross with rock slide will use pursuit to kill Dragonite.
-Gyarados- With access to rock slide a boosted atk metagross will kill a gyarados with the help of pursuit. If there is no rock slide then meta still has a chance to 2hko it with Zen headbutt+ pursuit.
-Charizard -metagross now has access to rock slide, so even without an atk boost depending on the move set used meta can certainly kill zard. Without rock slide, if meta has an attack boost it can certainly kill char with a zen headbutt+ a pursuit (this is assuming char doesn't get lucky and OHKO meta with a good fire spin)
-Typhlosion- Having the same stats as char, and being more susceptible because of earthquake, typhlosion can easily die even without an attack boost with EQ+Pursuit.
-Feraligatr- I'm afraid Fera will not be able to 2HKO metagross at all with EQ, which it would certainly need to be able to do in order to defeat it with boosted attack. With non-boosted attack it'll still likely lose with 2 zens and a pursuit, so it should be taken off the list of counters entirely.
-Arcanine- No getting around it, with +1 atk meta will OHKO Arcanine, if Metagross doesn't have boosted atk an EQ+pursuit can still kill it a good amount of the time.

Given the information above, there are now... 2 reliable counters to a SINGLE atk boosted metagross. Now think about how many counters there would be if pursuit was working normally, I think that statement can stand for itself.

Zebs I'd also like to be fair and point out that in that long list of pokemon you gave, only a fraction are considered usable in battle in PWO, so it exaggerates how OP meta is more than is necessary. It would be more practical, and would provide less holes to take only the pokemon with battle potential now, or in the foreseeable future in PWO to be compared.

@Krowe- You're crazy if you think they're going to change steel typing to gen 6 standards, and include an entirely new typing before the game is updated to fit gen 6 settings.

 

[CheckeredZebra]

I vaguely fixed things in that post. This is why I asked people to check after me. XD
(Completely forgot about Rock Slide)

However, for some reason you assumed I was saying Metagross was OP. I just went through everything just in case something surprised me (Ninetails making it through the first round, for example)! Not as a propaganda/exaggeration for or against any certain point. I just checked every ingame pokemon I could find that learned Flamethrower or EQ naturally or through TM. So I could decide for myself or let people decide for themselves without doing what I just did for 2 hours lmao. Just turns out there are only 2 reliable counters for it. That being said, I determined I consider Metagross an absolute monster after compiling that list.

I'm fairly certain that -judging by these results- all of the mainstream PvP pokemon cannot counter the potential Rock Slide/Earthquake, Meteor Mash, pursuit, and [Hammer Arm/Zen Headbutt] Meta. Not that they all will die every time. The moves are limited, after all. But you simply can't suddenly be psychic and know which moves your opponent doesn't have. People will have to start bringing 2 counters (one of them preferably having a duel role) or always packing a Swampert just to avoid the potential sweep (Quagsire just can't PvP well imo).

Granted, we also have to take into account that a boosted Metagross is probably weakened. Perhaps even to half health if you have, say, a Golduck/Vaporeon hydro pumping or some other netural matchoff. All you would need is one Flamethrower to finish the thing off. On the flip side...what if its a bad scenario and you only got 25% health off when it got that +1 stage?

Anyhow, with Rock Slide, that now means people have to choose 4/6 moves for Metagross, and I'm not sure many would pick Rock Slide AND Earthquake. Rock Slide covers flyers (dragon and zard) but with less accuracy and power than EQ. What's the opinion on that? Either way no battler can assume a pokemon does NOT have a move so long as it gives an equivalent advantage. Ofc, with rock slide out now debating EQ is now basically pointless. Which move will you use to kill the fire types? HMM. Does it really matter?

PS: Weakness to dark means less when you have Hammer Arm...

 

[EcoWOLFrb]

I wasn't assuming that you think metagross is OP, a major portion of this topic is related to whether or not meta would be benefited too greatly by EQ. This begs the question of "why is metagross the only pokemon being considered in this manner?", and the reasons are because it would directly counter fire pokemom (which are its main natural counters), and because as of right now, it is widely considered OP as it is even without adding EQ to it's move set.

Of course whether or not its damaged is a TREMENDOUS factor in debating it's power in battles, and personally from my experience it's mostly used to counter slow things like snorlax, things that can do very little damage to it, or things that it can finish off with Pursuit. These pokemon are often unable to do any damage to it, and when it comes to damaged pokemon like snorlax, or a low health slower pokemon, it often gets an attack boost in the process. Then it is the worst case scenario, as meta either kills the next pokemon, or is able to significantly damage the counter (like swampert, or arcanine without EQ on meta). The only way I know of to get around this is with luck, using Flygon with sand tomb, or Char with fire spin.

Now onto the last problem with it. Even if you're using a proper counter, with a 100% accurate power SE move on a half health metagross, it's able to abuse a broken move and get that one last hit on you with pursuit. You might not think this is a really big problem, but let me tell you... it is! Often it disallows you to withstand a hit from the next pokemon, which you would normally be able to, and it allows your opponent to use more safe methods than usual. For example, here's a very common situation.
-I bring Arcanine to finish off a damaged metagross
-Meta uses pursuit, I use flare blitz
-Flygon is sent out against Arcanine, and is able to finish it with EQ instead of taking a risk and using sand tomb like it would usually be forced to.

You might not see an issue with this, but there certainly is one! Ask yourself why I would be switching out on metagross with arcanine... I wouldn't right? So then Metagross shouldn't be able to do damage with a priority pursuit. It's a chain reaction which shouldn't be happening at all. One could argue that sucker punch is also wrong in PWO, and that pokemon like Absol or Kangaskhan are also taking advantage of a broken move. Sucker punch only works at all if the opponent is using a direct attacking move, of which PWO battling revolves around, therefore while it is broken it makes sense for sucker punch to be priority if it's impossible to make it work properly at the moment.

All this slightly veered off the point of the topic, but I'll jump back on topic by stating that the problem wouldn't be metagross getting EQ, the problem would be metagross having access to both EQ, and the currently broken pursuit at the same time.
*also, why in the world is Ar.senal censored?

 

[Krowe]

@EcoWOLFrb: The steel type has been in need of balancing since Gen 2. Whether or not the fairy type is added is irrelevant. Making steel neutral to ghost and dark is natural. It should happen either way.

If Gengar can fly through things made of steel and metal then Shadow Ball should punch through Steelix like a bullet through a melon. It's just sensible.

 

[Tecknician]

ar.senal is censored because of ar.se.

British control the censors. So british words get censored.