Dragonite and Multiscale

[Rainsinch]

There's been some talk among battlers recently that Dragonite is currently quite overpowered. The combination of Extremespeed, Dragon Dance, and Multiscale has been said to be quite formidable, so much so that there are only a few counters capable of taking care of it once it's used Dragon Dance a few times. The point of this topic is to discuss whether or not Dragonite is too seriously overpowered, and if so, what would be a proper solution to the problem.

Keeping in mind that even in a fully functioning battle system, Dragonite is used very frequently and could be considered one of the more powerful choices, do you feel that it's beyond the level it should be in PWO at the moment? If not, what counters are reliable, and is it to the point where you are restricted to absolutely needing to carry one of these counters as a reserve pokemon?

If you do believe it's overpowered, explain why you feel that way? What would be the best course of action to help prevent it from being such a problem? What other benefits would come from this solution other than keeping Dragonite in check?

 

[Pretentious]

Unlike Slaking had been for a long time, Dragonite should be among the most powerful, useful, and difficult to find Pokemon. Unfortunately, with the availability to purchase Dragonite through the TS, there is an overabundance of them in-game. :/

In regards to Multiscale: Excuse my ignorance for a second, but why is Dragonite's Hidden Ability being used?

 

[Saric]

Unlike Slaking had been for a long time, Dragonite should be among the most powerful, useful, and difficult to find Pokemon. Unfortunately, with the availability to purchase Dragonite through the TS, there is an overabundance of them in-game. :/

In regards to Multiscale: Excuse my ignorance for a second, but why is Dragonite's Hidden Ability being used?

Because a certain someone convinced shane to add the hidden ability over the default.

Back to the topic at hand, it should absolutely be removed. A hidden ability on the scale of multiscale has absolutely no business being on the likes of drago right now. Without hazards to offset it, it's just simply too powerful.

All it's turned drago into is basically Slak V2.

 

[HOF69]

Keeping in mind that even in a fully functioning battle system, Dragonite is used very frequently and could be considered one of the more powerful choices, do you feel that it's beyond the level it should be in PWO at the moment? If not, what counters are reliable, and is it to the point where you are restricted to absolutely needing to carry one of these counters as a reserve pokemon?

If you do believe it's overpowered, explain why you feel that way? What would be the best course of action to help prevent it from being such a problem? What other benefits would come from this solution other than keeping Dragonite in check?

There really shouldn't even be a discussion of whether or not Dragonite is overpowered in PWO, because it most certainly is. Even without the recent addition of Extremespeed to its moveset, it would still be by far the most powerful Pokemon in the game. There are only a handful of reliable counters to Dragonite now, and they're all Ice Shard users. The release of Earthquake TM and Extremespeed via the egg tutor has given Dragonite what it needed to take care of the few remaining threats that don't have Ice Shard, like Tyranitar. To answer your question, PWO has most definitely reached the point where a battler is restricted to absolutely needing to carry one (if not two) of these counters on a team.

To follow up on that note, one benefit of reducing Dragonite's power is that it would introduce a little more variety to teams; you wouldn't have to carry an Ice Shard user. We all know that Dragonite is supposed to be powerful, but PWO's metagame simply isn't ready for Multiscale. In a fully working system, Dragonite can be easily overcome. There are but two solutions to this problem. Either temporarily remove/disable Multiscale, or introduce working entry hazards and phazing moves. However, given that the latter would likely take considerably more time, I propose that Multiscale be temporarily removed until hazards and phazing are working in PWO.

 

[Fadoka]

Oh wait , I think they counter dragons with fairy since dragon moves doesn't touch fairy types just like thunders doesn't touch ground. But lol , can pwo reach that level? its the right solution in my opinion and tell me... removing an update is a new development? I don't think so. By the way ... why don't we get taunt fixed?

P.S : I only agree with HOF on adding hazards.

 

[Nikola]

Introduction of Multiscale as hidden ability was beginning of introducing every known ability into the game. There is a template to cover every Pokemon with every ability and all it takes is copy pasting it into the server code and waiting the game to crash or for restart so that pwo can have eery ability known to be ingame. It was crucial to make sure PWO can have such system and that is how Dragonite with hidden ability got born. However, due to series of unfortunate events PWO never got such update. Main obstacle here is covering current Pokemon with certain ability Pokemon can have. Staff had these discussion many times on how to distribute abiltites through the game. However, no action was taken due to being unable to discus enough such thing. Update itself would be very sensitive since you would be gambling with your Pokemon you worked so hard for or you would be making gap between new people and older players.

The game should be focused more on expanding the system for abilities and ways to balance them out. You don't come here and post saying Pokemon X is OP let's nerf it. You are supposed to look for updates that will make such Pokemon less noticable and balanced (that is how you get better system). "we dont have entry hazards" Multiscale is OP it doesnt belong here" > Here you are supposed to ask for hazards to be introduced together with other abilities and their ratio to make multiscale balanced. Would be nice to get Prankster ability now where you can always status Dragonite first before he even attacks. Such things are making you to do more updates for better balance. It's possible to have all abilities in PWO. Hard part is to distribute them and avoiding damage you may cause. Same thing applies to natures. Now good Pokemon can be junk or once bad Pokemon can become good.

Multiscale ability is the ability you want to have on Dragonite. To balance it out you will need few more updates added such as Entry hazards, phazing moves and proper ailment system. On top of that ability system will have to be revised. Like this you are only making people to buy Pokemon with one ability while there can be more. Someone will buy Pokemon X tomorrow and they will be pissed because they got bad ability which ruined their Pokemon. Some of them will live with that but soon as natures starts to be distributed they might be disapointed again...or happy...who knows.

You can see it's being worked on the system. However, since PWO supports PvP need for more abilities per Pokemon is more then needed. We recently saw Intimidate as ability...thats good honestly..however, what about Moxie ability? I personally wouldn't mind Intimidate on Salamence but I believe most of People would rather go with Moxie. Or Skill link Cloyster over crappy one we now have. There is a lot to do for this system. But yeah to balance things out you need updates like hazards and phazing moves. I can't agree that Dragonite is OP...I handle them easily. Soon as Dragnite is statused it's pretty much useless. Yet you have there a bug where mamoswine will go first with Ice Shard against Exremespeed which is also something to be looked at. Dragonite is one of 2 or 3 Pokemon that are working as itended (once outrage is fixed). Same will be with Gengar when he gets Levitate. One nice Pokemon working properly that will be.

 

[KaiReborn]

How about fixing taunt (to prevent dragonite from using dragon dance or any other status move for three turns) and entry hazards (to 'nullify' the effect of multiscale)?

 

[The-Predator]

How about fixing taunt (to prevent dragonite from using dragon dance or any other status move for three turns) and entry hazards (to 'nullify' the effect of multiscale)?

It is easier to remove updates than work on new ones, remove them takes zero time, work on them?? Hmm i think thats not An option for current staff??

 

[HOF69]

Taunt and entry hazards would be great, but everyone needs to remember that these would take time. Removing Multiscale would be quick, and it would only be temporary until we get the aforementioned updates. Dragonite is a very real problem right now. Letting it run wild for an extended period of time until hazards arrive is not a wise decision. Sometimes you need to take a step back before you can move forward.

 

[Saric]

Multiscale ability is the ability you want to have on Dragonite. To balance it out you will need few more updates added such as Entry hazards, phazing moves and proper ailment system. On top of that ability system will have to be revised. Like this you are only making people to buy Pokemon with one ability while there can be more. Someone will buy Pokemon X tomorrow and they will be pissed because they got bad ability which ruined their Pokemon. Some of them will live with that but soon as natures starts to be distributed they might be disapointed again...or happy...who knows.

Snipped the rest, but.

Okay what? Are you seriously suggesting that having multiscale, A HIDDEN ABILITY as a default ability on an already prevalent poke is a good idea?

Look, I get it. You like Dragonite. I'm sure you use it often and win quite a few battles because of it. But you need to stop and look for a second.

Is it seriously even balanced? Just a little bit? If you say anything but no you are absolutely delusional. You and others are calling for entry hazards and phazing to "balance it out". You do play this game, right? You should know as well as anyone that those types of things COME SLOWLY. It will not be quick. So you're suggesting keeping an ability that seriously inbalances things until those can be implemented?

The fact of the matter is, in no way will drago be useless or anything if it's removed. It's seriously needed to balance things back out. It's terrible when a singular poke can easily wipe out an entire team if it's even given a chance to boost.

 

[KaiReborn]

It'd probably come quicker if people voiced the need to see those added to the game (same way it has been done with traunt) instead of voicing support towards removal. I thought we were past the time removing things was the way of 'fixing' them

 

[CoffeeLover]

Unlike Slaking had been for a long time, Dragonite should be among the most powerful, useful, and difficult to find Pokemon. Unfortunately, with the availability to purchase Dragonite through the TS, there is an overabundance of them in-game. :/

I agree with the comment. In my humber opinion, all in-game catchables should be removed form the TS as soon as possible.

 

[Saurus]

Remove Dragonite. Remove truant. Remove multiscale. Just. Just.. Remove everything. While you're at it, remove a chromosome! One chromosome removal won't hurt the body!!!

 

[Nikola]

Multiscale ability is the ability you want to have on Dragonite. To balance it out you will need few more updates added such as Entry hazards, phazing moves and proper ailment system. On top of that ability system will have to be revised. Like this you are only making people to buy Pokemon with one ability while there can be more. Someone will buy Pokemon X tomorrow and they will be pissed because they got bad ability which ruined their Pokemon. Some of them will live with that but soon as natures starts to be distributed they might be disapointed again...or happy...who knows.

Snipped the rest, but.

Okay what? Are you seriously suggesting that having multiscale, A HIDDEN ABILITY as a default ability on an already prevalent poke is a good idea?

Look, I get it. You like Dragonite. I'm sure you use it often and win quite a few battles because of it. But you need to stop and look for a second.

Is it seriously even balanced? Just a little bit? If you say anything but no you are absolutely delusional. You and others are calling for entry hazards and phazing to "balance it out". You do play this game, right? You should know as well as anyone that those types of things COME SLOWLY. It will not be quick. So you're suggesting keeping an ability that seriously inbalances things until those can be implemented?

The fact of the matter is, in no way will drago be useless or anything if it's removed. It's seriously needed to balance things back out. It's terrible when a singular poke can easily wipe out an entire team if it's even given a chance to boost.

I am failing to see how Dragonite is already prevalent Pokemon. I also can't remember suggestion multiscale as default ability...Introduction of every ability ? yes. Thing is, it was planned for every Pokemon to have a chance of every ability it can be found with. The system was proven to work. Next planned step was introduction of marvel scale dratini where you have a chance of catching one. Hidden ability would remain once Pokemon evolves however. Due to series of unfortunate events PWO never got such update as I said above.

It's not about liking or disliking. I personally give a damn about that. Things coming slowly is not yours or mine concern right? Once again I am not quite sure why do you claim it's overpowered..Things might be out of balance but there is proper way of dealing with those. Entry hazards will not come before new client since you need gfx and other things to make it work and to look proper. You said it yourself about imbalance. People waited a lot for abilities but they eventually came. This would be also good time for introduction of fairy type. There are simply a lot of things you can introduce to nullify certain abilities, moves etc.

If you are getting swept by a Dragonite then you have some issues in your tactic and team. There are many pokemon that can boost on dragonite even now. Many pokemon can defeat whole team, that is natural. You can get gengar trolled easily. Thing is, you have to look at this as something to push people to do updates needed. First thing to come after hazards and others is distribution of natures and abilities. More you wait like this more you lose. If you are really eager to remove the ability then you should suggest something like distribution of Dragonites abiltities and introduction of hidden abilities. Removing things will do no good, amend the system? maybe. As said, main problem here is to distribute abilities to players. There have been many discussions for that matter. Sadly nothing concrete was agreed on.

Once you get hazards, phazing moves and abiltites like prankster it will be good. Hell, you could even suggest to remove all abiltites until PWO gets certain updates...you would be more accurate like that rather then with something like this. It's rather bias with no concrete ground to stand on. But yeh, every type of ability and their distribution is needed. How is that going to happen or when...its not up to me or you. This is time where you have to move forward. Introduce a lot more to actually make something noticable. Only thing id do with those abiltites is making proper system for their distribution unlocking every ability possible mapping them with the Pokemon. I see no issues with Multiscale ability, afterall it is the ability everyone would prefer and it's ability Dragonite holds naturally. I only see need for updates nothing else, zero removal and bit of revising.

This type of topics will be more often especially directed into lack of abilites. Unlock every ability, distribute hidden ones and cover 1st evos...eg; Marvel scale Dratini will be Mutli scale Dragonite...Simple thing to do. Distributing different ability for current Pokemon? Ouch! Introducing natures? few minutes...Covering current Pokemon with natures? Very big Ouch!. Even if you have God looking Pokemon atm it can be pretty much useless tomorrow and even if you get desired nature, you can get non desired ability as sugar on the end or vice versa. Make people to gamble with their efforts and struggle or allowing them to tweak Pokemon attributes as they wish? What's going to be? Ah well, game can be purged so you get one solution more where you can put system in place easily with no worries. I doubt they are planning on staying on a certain advancement point such as current point..so..Shall see.

 

[Pretentious]

I think the problem with giving Dragonite its Hidden Ability, Multiscale, is that this doesn't follow the "rule" that all of the other abilities are expected to follow. Each Pokemon is given their "first" ability. In this case, Dragonite's first ability would be Inner Focus. As many other people pointed out, if you remove Multiscale for the time being, then you still have the code and could potentially implement it later.

Consistency is key.

Thanks to Saric (+1), I know that the current staff didn't add this ability, but they probably should disable it for the time being. I'm all for new things (except EVs, NEVER EVs) being added to PWO, but staff should try to maintain some order of consistency (as they have been-- with this as an exception) until they're all able to be implemented.

 

[Rainsinch]

Right so question, does breeding render the concept of hidden abilities basically useless in the handhelds? You can just breed a Dragonite with multiscale and get another one with multiscale correct? If this is the case, what is the problem with all Dragonites having it, as they would in any competitive battling in the handhelds? (note: this is not me showing a bias towards pro-Dragonite, I'm merely asking something that I've heard asked by others outside of this topic)

With the addition of Hazards, phasing, taunt, and some other beneficial abilities, would the situation be practically resolved? I hear some of you that think that removal would be an unnecessary step back, where we should be moving forward, but my question would be is the situation severe enough, and frustrating enough to warrant removal of it's ability entirely instead of balancing the system?

What other abilities could be added in game to try to reduce the power of the current Dragonite? If outrage was 100% working, would it be a benefit, or a plague to Dragonite? Would fully functioning major and minor status ailments, coupled with fully functioning Outrage be enough to allow some time until hazards and phasing can be implemented?

 

[I.Am]

Dragonite without Multiscale ability is just..crap. How about remove Extremespeed ?

 

[HOF69]

Right so question, does breeding render the concept of hidden abilities basically useless in the handhelds? You can just breed a Dragonite with multiscale and get another one with multiscale correct? If this is the case, what is the problem with all Dragonites having it, as they would in any competitive battling in the handhelds? (note: this is not me showing a bias towards pro-Dragonite, I'm merely asking something that I've heard asked by others outside of this topic)

With the addition of Hazards, phasing, taunt, and some other beneficial abilities, would the situation be practically resolved? I hear some of you that think that removal would be an unnecessary step back, where we should be moving forward, but my question would be is the situation severe enough, and frustrating enough to warrant removal of it's ability entirely instead of balancing the system?

What other abilities could be added in game to try to reduce the power of the current Dragonite? If outrage was 100% working, would it be a benefit, or a plague to Dragonite? Would fully functioning major and minor status ailments, coupled with fully functioning Outrage be enough to allow some time until hazards and phasing can be implemented?

I'll try to answer the questions you've asked in order.

1) The problem isn't about whether some or all Dragonites have Multiscale; it's that they have Multiscale at all under the current limitations of the battle system. As I've explained, Dragonite is the uncontested top battler in PWO right now (arguably even worse than Slaking ever was), and if you don't carry at least one Ice Shard user, well you're pretty much screwed. Look, we all want to have Multiscale; there's no doubt that it's Dragonite's best ability and one of the best abilities in all of Pokemon. But we have to look past the favoritism and strive for balancing the metagame. No one seemed to have a problem with preventing Slaking from learning TMs, or keeping it's Fighting-type moves (e.g. Focus Punch) nerfed in power. We all knew Slaking was OP and disrupting the balance of the battle system. Why should Dragonite be treated any differently until more updates are added?

2) Adding entry hazards (especially Stealth Rock), phazing moves, Taunt, and other abilities would most definitely resolve the situation. Stealth Rock alone makes Multiscale useless. But as I've pointed out to those that think removing Multiscale would be a step back, sometimes you need to take a step back before you can take a step forward. Hazards, etc. are not going to be added overnight just because we want them. Removing Multiscale to promote balancing the metagame is much quicker, and a TEMPORARY solution until the aforementioned updates are ready. Multiscale wouldn't be gone forever.

3) Honestly, there aren't really what I would call any game-changing abilities that would keep Dragonite in check. Prankster is probably the most notable one, but only one available Pokemon in PWO (Sableye) would be able to have it. Held items would be far more effective in this regard. Focus Sash alone suddenly means that no matter how powerful Dragonite is or how many boosts it's gotten in, it won't be able to OHKO a Pokemon holding this item. That opens up a whole new suite of strategies to finishing off Dragonite.

4) Fully working Outrage would most certainly handicap Dragonite. Once it uses the move for the first time, it's stuck using it for at least one more turn, which means no using Earthquake, Extremespeed, etc. This allows players to plan their next move accordingly. In addition, the confusion inflicted upon Dragonite at the end of Outrage can be devastating (as long as Lum Berry isn't in game). Working Outrage would also make Steel-types much more viable, as they are the only Pokemon capable of resisting Outrage in PWO.

 

[HOF69]

Dragonite without Multiscale ability is just..crap. How about remove Extremespeed ?

Please explain how Dragonite would be "crap" without Multiscale. It wasn't "crap" before the ability was added, and that was before Earthquake TM was released and before Dragonite could learn Extremespeed via the egg move tutor. Without Multiscale, it wouldn't be nearly as powerful as it is now, but it would still be very useful.

 

[Sabo]

I will just say this ,those who have that moveset :EQ ,Outrage ,Extremespeed and Dragon dance .Must be idiots really.Having such a moveset on dragonite its useless.Burn him and boost Coly or fera as you can see here.So much about OP dargo.

Dragonite is strongest pokemon on battle scene yes,but not OP.Even in past we had to carry counter for it nothing special.U have 4-5 common battlers wich can counter it and prevent him from boosting.Dragonite is op only if you let your opponet to use 2 dd on you then its unstopable.So all who complain ho OP drago is update ur moves. There are moves like scary face, thunder wave ,charm,whisp and etc....why should they remove somethign what work as it should. Beter question why is something what work as it should OP in PWO????