Battle adjustments thread.

[Tecknician]

Got tired of the various threads running around making my own so that I can control the topic and what course it takes.

Let me start by saying a few words for my own sanity:

Some things are simply not possible at this moment, short list: abilities, evs, a full working battle system.
Some things are not very probable at this moment: A bunch of complex unique moves like baton pass or transform.
Some things are probable depending on to the degree desired. Tm's are possible with restrictions. PP is possible without a client update, but not desired as you won't know the amount of pp you have left out of what.

What I try to look for base on players feedback is ways to improve the battle system to get it into a relatively balance place. Some thing will make things less balance, I have no problems undoing them. Some things I have no problem straying from how it's done in the handhelds to make it more suited for pwo. I am not an expert on pokemon battles however. I have not played past the 4th gen. I am not a competitive pokemon player, in fact I have never battled against someone else for anything other than casualness. As far as I am concern, Lapras is the best pokemon ever and sing, confuse ray, ice beam and perish song is a perfect combination. If you tell me why something would make the battle scene more balance please explain. Telling me TM's will not help me unless you tell me why. Telling me fixing the switching bug tells me little because there is multiple parts to it that is broken (also added an adjustment to it last night that may help).

I do not remember everything that has been reported to me, because my mind is not a database. I can't store 100 different reports about various bugs from 5 months ago. Explaining things helps me.

Likewise you should expect the same from me, I will try to explain what I can to the best ability that I can.

I take pvping in pwo very seriously because it's an online game. It should be expected that players would want to pvp. It is very disheartening however when players don't like to pvp because of certain mechanics. I aim to get the battle system to a place where a good majority of players like it over hates it and it is relatively balanced.

Any negative comments will be deleted regardless of what else is said based on my own discretion. This is my topic, not yours. If you want to get into an argument with someone, especially a personal one, take it outside of the forums where there you can show how big of a pokenerd/pvp god/know it all/girly man/hot shot you really are. I need constructive feedback in order to be of any help.

 

[Tecknician]

First issue: the issue regarding stalling in battles due to the stat changing moves:

What parts of the switching bug needs to be fixed in order to help this? I have already implemented a change that SHOULD resolve the issue of a pokemon not attacking when the opponent has switched. However I am still waiting on feedback to confirm this. The change may also fix other aspects as well like when using explosion and both pokemon fainting.

How would tm's help? From everything I have looked into tms will only make uber pokemon more uber. Pokes like slaking, dragonite, sala.

Why is this stalling even a bad thing at all? It almost sounds like they are sacrificing one of their pokemon (if I understand correctly) to take out on of yours with their next pokemon. It almost sounds like strategy to me. Only major problem I see with this is if you are both targeting the same stat, is this what is happening? To a point it almost sounds like everyone is being stubborn and complaining about stalling instead of finding away around this to make it irrelevant.

Once again, I can remove this, possibly revert back to the old system, nerf it various ways (cap on stages, make stages percentage lower, make it so the amount of stages are different than the handhelds).

What will make players not want to stall?

 

[Merse]

Teck the job you have done is wonderful, and your efforts for this game are next to heroic. It is not your fault at any level that the battle system is unbalanced. There is no way of testing it anyway other than throwing it at players who then do thousands of battles and look for the flaws to exploit it.
What I currently see as an issue is the ability to sacrifice one or two Pokemon to boost the next one to a level where it is unbeatable because its SPD and ATK/SATK cannot be matched regardless of what Pokemon the other player has. The two options of the other player are a) accept that he is beaten, or b) start using a counter move which very often leads to a deadlock.

I think it would worth a try to use a progressive system with stat changing moves, while reducing their effectiveness at the same. The more a stat changing move you use, the less its effect is. If you use something that increases SPD, the second move would increase it less than the first one. The whole system could be reduced so the overall boosting would become slower. If it took 2 turns to max out a Pokemon's speed, now it should take 4 turns, where the third turn would boost it almost to max. That would mean about a 33% of reduction in effectiveness overall. And of course that would mean reverting form the level system to mere stat numbers.
Additionally, the counter move could receive a slight bonus if the opponent's stats are off the normal. A move that slows the Pokemon down would be slightly more effective if the Pokemon's speed was already boosted earlier, compared to the effect on a not boosted Pokemon. This would practically solve the deadlocks/stalling issues.

I deliberately didn't use attacks and exact numbers because I'm not that expert, but I think this system would keep good things from both the previous and the current battle system. I hope it would mean you can't overuse the stat changing moves but you still can benefit from them if you use them cleverly.

EDIT: On the switching note: I think if the switch would happen at the end of the turn and not at the beginning of the next one could help. So when you switch you won't be hit by the boosted Pokemon right as your Poke comes out of its pokeball. Of course it still would likely suffer the first hit in the next turn, but that's only one turn in disadvantage and not two.

 

[psychosamm]

To start off i want to let you and all the staff know that i genuinely appreciate all the hard work you guys have done for this game, thank you. Now about this whole issue with the back and forth growl/ dragon dance type fights, i honestly think it has less to do with the battle system and more to do with the stubbornness of the people playing. No one wants to loose of course, but if you're stubborn to the point where the battle system is being blamed for it, then you need a wake up call. There isn't anything especially wrong with the battle system, it's simply not as diverse as it could be. As of late the same tunes are being sung for the majority of PvPers, everyone wants to try and win through boosting off of other players, and if a player uses one wrong pokemon, it could end their entire battle. (Such as Arcanine vs Dragonite, arca has no chance of killing drago, so drago will boost like crazy and easly wipe out the rest of your team) due to this and many scenarios like it, Arcanine has become quite scarce on the battle scene. This is a very strange thing because normally Arcanine would probably be considered one of the best fire types there is, so obviously there is at least something going not quite right with the battle system. I believe the main focus at the very least should be to add spice and variety to the battle scene. Seeing the same 10-20 pokemon on almost every team isn't particularly exciting, especially when there is untapped potential in a variety of other pokemon. One way to make this happen is through TMs...Stay with me! Don't bust out the knife just yet!

Now before i go on i will say the PWO is certainly more diverse than it once was due to your awesome moveset updates and the physical/special split. Those made unbelievable progress and i thank you for that. TMs however will expand upon this double, maybe even triple as much. What would happen is that Arcanine could defend itself against Dragonite, this in itself will end the excessive boosting that's been going on, people will only be able to minimally raise their stats, as it should be. They would no longer be able to turn one pokemon into a god that could destroy your entire lineup. Such things just don't happen in the handhelds, and there's a reason for that; it's just not fun. No one wants to be wiped out because of 1 poor pokemon choice. There would also be many more options between physical and special moves, some pokemon become sitting ducks when they have their attack lowered, through TMs one could add a special move as a backup in scenarios like this. Also people would naturally load up on TM moves so they may get rid of their stat enhancing moves... It will become a matter of preference, there will be an added mystery to battles, does his pokemon have dragon dance, or flamethrower...? Again it will add a lot of variety in the pokemon currently on the battlefield and also add new pokemon to the mix as well with their new found potential. If anything TMs will give less uber pokemon more of a fighting chance against the heavy hitters like Dragonite. (There are plenty of pokemon that can learn ice beam, such as swampert, which is one of the more common Dragon Dance/Growl fights)

As for PP i dont think it will even be necessary if TMs are added, since the stat boosting issue would resolve itself. It could however be something to strive for at a later point when the new client is released, so it could be implemented optimally. (being able to see how much PP you have left)

I think that's everything i have to say, if i think of anything else i'l let you know. ^_^

 

[HOF69]

Just wanted to make a quick post before going to bed about the issue of switching. Obviously there are certain moves that are focused on switching (e.g. Pursuit and Baton Pass), but those edits are for another time I believe. The main problems with switching not working in PWO have been these: a Pokemon not getting a free attack when an opponent switches out (which appears to have been fixed by Teck), and any stat boosts or reductions (e.g. +1 stage in attack) not being erased when a Pokemon switches out. From what I've heard regarding the updates Teck just made to switching, Pokemon still retain any stat changes they have when they switch out and back in later. Obviously this is incorrect, as all stat changes are supposed to be negated when a Pokemon switches out. However, I will note that status ailments like sleep and poison are not cleared when a Pokemon switches out. If both of these primary switching functions are working properly, boosting a Pokemon to the point where it becomes unbeatable becomes much more difficult (if not impossible) in PWO, and it adds a whole new element of diverse battling.

 

[The-Predator]

I want to clarify that i wasnt "moaning" around at all, stat changes was working fine even though theres no PP implemented but these players found the way to ruin it, yeah i know there are ways to counter those "strategies" although there are pokemon that doesnt have a chance against others: in my thread i made flygon vs charizard as an example, i saw robertallan answer of what could i possible do, flygon having dragonbreath and such yeah that could´ve worked, but what would u do if snorlax vs steelix?? tauros vs metagross/steelix/scizor?? they could just simply boost on as they are based on physical moves, and both pokemon has no effective atks in its moveset to do any damage at all.

I dont want to revert the updates made in PWO as it would be selfish. You took ur time to make such great update, and there is just these childish players making extremely ridiculous ways to battle, its done but what about adding TM´s??

I see TM´s as the best way to somehow complement stat changes update, some pokemon out of battle scene would enter into it and some others would go back,
you said uber pokemon would be more uber, hmm I dont think this would be the case yeah i know a dragonite could have thunderbolt in its moveset flamethrower or so but there are simply no perfect pokemon and TM´s would make those pokemon that are letting other pokemon to currently boost the others have a chance against em, the most casual examples is Drago vs swampert, steelix vs snorlax, arcanine vs dragonite, scizor vs exeggutor/venusaur, swampert would have a chance with ice beam(TM) or some other ice type move, snorlax would have a chance with fire punch(TM), arcanine can learn some dragon type moves, i dont remember a possible TM for exe/venu but u see my point right??

No pokemon is perfect uber wold be uber still but would still have perfect counters salamence with thunderbolt would have no chance against starmie with ice beam, but starmie wouldnt have a chance against any other grass pokemon is all a chain u could have the uberest pokemon but with TM´s implemented u could have counter or a chance to inflict some damage to any pokemon, people would think twice before trying to boost/do what they are currently doing but at the same time no pokemon would be unbeatable

 

[Tecknician]

Kyppo I want to apologize for making it seem like I said something directly at you. This is not the case and I appreciate your feedback.

Hof I should be able to reset all stats when a Pokemon switches out but not the status ailments.

Has the glitches from switching like the never ending battles still exist?

 

[The-Predator]

Kyppo I want to apologize for making it seem like I said something directly at you. This is not the case and I appreciate your feedback.

Hof I should be able to reset all stats when a Pokemon switches out but not the status ailments.

Has the glitches from switching like the never ending battles still exist?

Its ok teck, I just need to check the last client announcement to see how childish and annoying can players be... so no problem

about switching glitches havent been able to test switching, i have logged in however havent found someone in battle channel lately

 

[Nikola]

Was having a battle witch switching today and must say it works very well. Originally when Pokemon switches out every stat changed should reset. Status ailements should remain when you switch excluding confusion and leech seed. For example if you use Confuse ray, it's effect will go away once you switch however that is not the case here. Also noticed once Swagger fails due to accuracy of 90 the opposing Pokemon will get it's attack boosted however it's not going to remain confused that would be the case if Safeguard move was used but it's not.

 

[CheckeredZebra]

I'm still no pvp God but from the concerns I'd listened to, the main problem was having bad matchups (Like the previously mentioned snorlax vs steelix, where steelix could stat boost until it becomes godly) added to the fact that switching out of said matchups is considered a breach in PWO's unwritten rules of engagement. Furthermore, moves such as haze don't work, meaning you can't come in the next turn with a Crobat and wipe out the godly boost.

In other words, with how it was, PWO inadvertently added a feature that allowed the creation of sweepers (pokes that are intentionally set up for the sole purpose of wiping out entire teams) without updating other features to allow those Pokemon to be properly countered. This is why stat boosting moves were more of an unbalance than a strategy.

I'll have to do some testing to see if that is still the case and if switching still glitches up battles. =P

[Other pokemon roles, such as stallers, baton passers, etc, lack the features to come into the PWO battle scene yet. Some of them are halfway there because of stat allotment, like steelix is a physical type wall. As such, PWO PvP became about what could counter/kill the most teams vs. the actual handheld system of making a setup that would boost your own pokes and potentially ruin your enemy's own setup.]

 

[HeavyPetter]

Merses idea of gradually reducing the effectiveness of stat altering moves if they are used multiple times is very good! I would like to suggest the following simple formula for stat increasing moves that I think would balance it nicely:

S = S0*(2-1/(n+1));

where n is the number of times a stat altering move has been used on the stat whose value is initially determined by S0, and subsequently by S. For example, one use of a stat increasing move would increase it from S0 to S0*1.5, two uses would increase it to S0*1.67 and infinite uses to S0*2, meaning it would maximally be possible to double ones attack. Lowering moves would similarly follow:

S = S0/2*(1+1/(m+1));

where m is the number of times a stat lowering move has been used. One use would give 3/4, two uses 2/3, three uses 5/8 and infinite uses 1/2

Combined formula: S=S0/2*(2-1/(n+1))*(1+1/(m+1));

The only setback of this formula is that it favors stat increasing moves a little bit over decreasing ones (although infinite usage of both would cancel out to one), but that is quite nice actually as it promotes aggression and prevents stalling.

Of course it is also quite easy to modify the formulas to get other infinity limits than 2x for increasing and 1/2x for decreasing, for example

S = S0*(3-2/(n+1)) for increasing

and

S = S0/3*(1+2/(m+1));

would give 3x and 1/3x.

EDIT: On a side-note I'd also like evasion and accuracy to be implemented, that should not be overly hard, but it would be very fun to use minimize like in the handhelds and get a super-evasive Muk

 

[Tecknician]

Stat decreasing has reduce effectiveness already. This could also be applied to stat increases but still keep the stage/percentage idea.

 

[EcoWOLFrb]

This is going to be a long winded reply so I'll do everyone the courtesy of putting the different sections in spoilers.

In regards to Switching
I hate to say this again but in reply to hof there are just too many elements missing in PWO to make switching fair just yet. If we wait for a couple more major updates i think it could work but it's just not there. The main things needed to make switching fair for all players are: Entry hazards, Self/team healing moves, more move selection, priority moves, abilities, items, and moves like roar and whirlwind that force the opponent out. All of these things force switching to be used properly and I can certainly give examples of each, but I'll only select a couple:
Entry hazards

Spoiler

People tend to think twice about switching when their pokemon will be hurt immediately when they do, it gives some advantage to the person being switched on when they have a vulnerable pokemon out.

more move selection

Spoiler

Some pokemon simply can't damage others with the current move selection, what happens when I use thunder on a water pokemon with jolteon but they throw out rhydon? Rhydon takes no damage at all and unless I switch out I'm defenseless, even if I do I'll certainly take a hit. This is why we need more move selection, with Roar jolteon could counter rhyddon, forcing another pokemon out instead. This is just one of hundreds of examples.

priority moves

Spoiler

With priority moves certain pokemon wouldn't be viable to be switched out with against others. Say for example arcanine, switching scizor out with another pokemon only makes sense right? Well what if you only have say, jolteon left and arcanine is already damaged from earlier on in the battle. Arcanine uses flare blitz, but scizor switches with jolteon... jolteon is going to take the hit and then finish off arca right? No, arca then uses extremespeed to kill jolteon because it's a level two priority move and arcanine will go first regardless of speed.

I know this is probably not what you want to hear, and I'm not saying that I want it right now this second, but IMO switching makes absolutely no sense without a fully working battle system. Switching should be on the back end of the priority list until at least most of these things are available. Again... I'm not saying these things need to be implemented immediately, and obviously I could keep going on about these things but I'll digress.

In regard to more move selection and how it would help the current battle system.

Spoiler

I'm not saying TM's need to be brought into game right now, I fully realize that it would take a good amount of effort to go through each and every pokemon and code the moves they learn. I also fully realize that as there are broken moves now they should be worked on and hold some degree of priority. However if B&W 2 moves are possible to some degree of ease then I think it'd help tremendously. Pokemon would instantly become more viable and less susceptible to boosting, but obviously it wouldn't help as much as TM's.

As for the issue of TM's making some pokemon more overpowered than they already are, I'll disagree with you there. Slaking would really be the only pokemon that would be ridiculously OP, this is because his ability disallows him to move every other turn. With PWO he'd be capable of using moves like flamethrower, ice beam, and solarbeam every single turn... obviously just as in the past he'd need to be unable to use these moves. Other than slaking there would be a balance, as with the dragons there are tons of pokemon that learn ice beam which would easily cure them.

Even more so than making existing popular PVP pokemon more versatile it'd create an opening for other pokemon to take the stage. Take Raticate for example, with TM's he could kill dragonite without fully working dragon dance, or it could kill gyarados... all OP pokemon right now. Starmie would become one of the best battlers, it would give pokemon like sceptile, vaporeon, Tauros ect ect a chance to battle these pokemon that now rule the system. The pseudo legends don't really get the amazing moveset that some of the others do because of their base stats balancing them out save for dragonite... but he has so many counters already. There are many more pokemon that would benefit from TM's more so than the already powerful pokemon, all you'd have to do is browse bulbapedia for a while and you'll see.

In regards to regressing to before status boosts

Spoiler

I would hate to see that such a good update gets undone simply because players aren't mature enough to handle it. I feel there is a misconception still about what exactly the problem is, as teck said sacrificing one or two pokemon to set up a sweep IS strategy, this is not the problem. The problem comes after this is already done, when there is a counter to the pokemon that will be boosted. To clarify I will provide 3 examples, and who I believe is in the right and wrong here.

Example 1 (the most used example)

Spoiler

Player 1 Brings in swampert to kill player 2's Jolteon
Player 2 uses growl on swampert, player 1 kills jolteon with Earthquake
Player 2 brings in dragonite on swampert
Player 1 is forced to use growl to prevent dragonite from boosting on him, and sweeping his team. Especially with nulled attack there is no other reasonable move to use against dragonite
Player 2 repeatedly tries using dragon dance hoping player 1 gives up and essentially forfeits the battle instead of attacking and having it's atk lowered 1 time.
this now goes on for however long the dragonite user is willing to go.
In this scenario player 2 is strongly in the wrong, he is being unreasonable and stubborn by trying to annoy his way to victory.

Example 2 (the scary face example)

Spoiler

Player 1 uses growl on a metagross twice with espeon
Player 2 kills espeon with 2 meteor mashes but fails to raise attack
player 1 throws out scizor to boost on the weakened metagross
player 2 has no effective means of stopping scizor from boosting physically, so he uses scary face in order to lower his speed to set up for his next pokemon
Player 1 continually uses agility against scary face instead of attacking the metagross, waiting for it to give up.
Player 1 SHOULD power up scizors attack with swords dance, kill metagross and hope the next pokemon isn't a fire type, however being the stubborn idiot he is he tries to childishly get his way... he is obviously in the wrong

Example 3 (the most difficult predicament)

Spoiler

Player 1 finishes a pokemon off with salamence
Player 2 brings out pidgeot and uses featherdance it, each time lowering it's attack dramatically
Player 1 is now essentially trapped, and uses scary face on pidgeot hoping player 2 will decide to kill salamence
Player 2 refuses to kill salamence and spams agility or featherdance until salamence kills pidgeot in order to boost his next pokemon
this can go on forever, and it's hard to tell who is at fault here. According to some this is merely strategy, but to others it's playing dirty... decide for yourself who is at fault.

I'd like there to be some other way of these pokemon defending themselves other than simply going back and regressing the games progress. Status updates should've been a major improvement but apparently it was brought in at the wrong time like I said when they first came out. That being said I think with the addition of new moves there would be more balance, and effective ways of avoiding these scenarios as most pokemon can learn special and physical moves with TM's. I would hate to see status moves only do 10 points again, and to be clear I believe myself completely unbiased on the matter as I had a much easier time defeating my opponents before this update.

To conclude I'd like to make a short list of things I believe should be fixed or updated in order of importance:

Spoiler

1- Move updates, whether it's TM's, HM's, B&W 2, egg, or tutor moves
2- Priority Moves
3- Self-healing moves
4- Fixing most of the broken moves
5- Entry hazards
6- Abilities/items
7- Weather
8- Switching moves (baton pass, whirlwind, roar ect.) and switching

If anyone has any possible additions or suggestions to this list I'm all ears

 

[Tecknician]

What if Boosting moves were to be removed from "uber" defined pokemon?

 

[HeavyPetter]

Stat decreasing has reduce effectiveness already. This could also be applied to stat increases but still keep the stage/percentage idea.

This seems like a fix that would work to stop people from boosting to unreasonable levels.

 

[HOF69]

What if Boosting moves were to be removed from "uber" defined pokemon?

This would certainly be a quick and easy fix.

-Remove Dragon Dance from Dragonite
-Remove Swords Dance from Scizor

Boosting problem solved IMO.

 

[EcoWOLFrb]

What if Boosting moves were to be removed from "uber" defined pokemon?

This would certainly be a quick and easy fix.

-Remove Dragon Dance from Dragonite
-Remove Swords Dance from Scizor

Boosting problem solved IMO.

^ this. At least until the moves and such can be added at your convenience.

 

[Tecknician]

Are those the only two pokemon? Are there more? What about meta and sala?

 

[EcoWOLFrb]

Are those the only two pokemon? Are there more? What about meta and sala?

Sala isn't able to boost itself at all, and Meta only has agility and the possibility of gaining 1 stage of attack through meteor mash, combined with his inaccuracy I'd hardly call him OP currently. Steelix would be the only other one I could think of with his ability to boost curse but I'm not sure it's nearly as easy as scizor and drago are currently.

 

[Nikola]

What if Boosting moves were to be removed from "uber" defined pokemon?

This would certainly be a quick and easy fix.

-Remove Dragon Dance from Dragonite
-Remove Swords Dance from Scizor

Boosting problem solved IMO.

^ this. At least until the moves and such can be added at your convenience.

Not sure why Steelix isn't on that list and its broken Curse. Planning to Growl those and bring Steelix in? Doesn't have to be Steelix alone, any Pokemon that is able to boost both Speed and offensive stat should be treated the same way if you want to go this way. Perfect example would be using Growl/Screech/Tailwhip on Atk based Pokemon then boost your Steelix after. This solution would somehow soften boosting effect due to most common used Pokemon. Modifying status increase moves is one sided while there will be Growl and such to spam. This might look very simple but actually it's not. Battle engine is something that every game is having troubles with since it requires perfect balance. This is the best game ever but we are beta testing it.